The misbegotten waif thread a/k/a The Fray V2

[HolyMan]

Awesome WD we will Americanize you yet.

I too must spread the XP wealth, (thought I was?)

HM

 

[Rhun]

Not enough, I guess? How many people do you have to give XP to before you go full circle and can give the same person more?

 

[GandalfMithrandir]

this is an interesting and off topic debate that we had in school today about World War Two:

The German Soldiers, most of them at least, were not bad people, the bad people were the members of the Nazi party and the SS (of course the SS were members, but that's neither here nor there) and so many people think that all Germans were bad people that were all very anti-semetic, while also thinking that Americans were not, which is also a blatant lie, it's just the nazi party actually acted out violently as opposed to socially, and most Germans were not necessarily wanting to kill off that group, and they were not bad people, both sides committed atrocities, the only problem is that since we won we didn't have to deal with it, we bombed the crap out of German cities, especially toward the end of the war, if the Germans did that to us we would have been very ticked off at them for doing so. So no, most Germans in World War Two were not bad, and just ordinary folk like you and me, their leaders were bad.

[/rant]

 

[GandalfMithrandir]

in response to Rhun:

we don't know, about 30 people.

 

[Rhun]

we bombed the crap out of German cities, especially toward the end of the war, if the Germans did that to us we would have been very ticked off at them for doing so. So no, most Germans in World War Two were not bad, and just ordinary folk like you and me, their leaders were bad.

Keep in mind here that America tried to stay neutral in WWII (at least as far as direct military intervention was concerned). It was the attack by the Japanese (who were the German's allies) that brought the United States into the war. When you start a fight with somebody, and they kick your ass...that is your fault. Not the fault of the person who gave you the beat down.

Of course, I agree that is wasn't the fault of the German people, but of their leadership. But also keep in mind that the Nazi Party rose to power based on the people who elected them to power. They were a republic at the time the Nazi Party rose to prominence.

 

[HolyMan]

Actually I read someplace that the American leaders were almost glad (although not for Pearl Harbor or the loss of life) to get a reason to take it to the Germans. Can't remember in what but I saw plans for Germans planned invasion of England.

My observations:

Had that happened it would have been a different war as we would have had no place to land planes or a safe zone for ships. no place to launch a D-day assault and the Russians would have been without any kind of support. The Germans were ten miles from Moscow at one point during the war. Had England fell the Russians might have drawn back and tried to hold up instead of advancing. They were the first troops into Berlin btw.

HM

 

[GandalfMithrandir]

Keep in mind here that America tried to stay neutral in WWII (at least as far as direct military intervention was concerned). It was the attack by the Japanese (who were the German's allies) that brought the United States into the war. When you start a fight with somebody, and they kick your ass...that is your fault. Not the fault of the person who gave you the beat down.

This is funny, because Germany actually declared war on us after we declared war on Japan, and we were completely un-prepared for war before pearl harbor, when everyone and their brother signed up for the Army to go fight the Japanese, then we out-produced 'em

Of course, I agree that is wasn't the fault of the German people, but of their leadership. But also keep in mind that the Nazi Party rose to power based on the people who elected them to power. They were a republic at the time the Nazi Party rose to prominence.

Although Hitler was very good at telling people what they wanted to hear, Germany got royally screwed over with the treaty of Versailles and had a messed up economy, Hitler told the people "We can be great again, I will fix the economy and Germany will once again become a great world power like it was" Hitler had an amazing amount of power over people and was very charismatic, and became the ('33 I think it was) Time magazine man of the year, he just used his abilities for bad.

Actually I read someplace that the American leaders were almost glad (although not for Pearl Harbor or the loss of life) to get a reason to take it to the Germans. Can't remember in what but I saw plans for Germans planned invasion of England.

My observations:

Had that happened it would have been a different war as we would have had no place to land planes or a safe zone for ships. no place to launch a D-day assault and the Russians would have been without any kind of support. The Germans were ten miles from Moscow at one point during the war. Had England fell the Russians might have drawn back and tried to hold up instead of advancing. They were the first troops into Berlin btw.

HM

The Germans actually did plan to invade england, this would have happened about '42 ish according to the alternate history book I have on the subject, although it is unlikely that that would have happened, Britain pretty much controlled the seas and the Germans had no landing craft, although they did make movies like The Eagle has Landed about a German airborne drop into England to kill Churchill but I really doubt that England would have been invaded before Russia, they would have been pushed across the channel but after that it would have been put on hold, but on the Russian Front Germany came very close to winning, but what really stopped it, and here I go glorifying america again, but the invasion of Italy after Africa was taken opened up another front for the Germans to have to cover and mainly took Eastern Front people.

My 2 coppers on the subject (one of my favorites)

GM

EDIT with my main point for HM:

IF we had not entered the war, the British 8th army would have been driven out of Africa, then Russia would fall, then the Germans would develop landing craft, then America would have been the next target, maybe since we're over seas we would have been left alone, but assuming Hitler stayed in power and his economy didn't fall out from under him like some people predict it would have, then I think they were expansionist enough to come after us.

 

[HolyMan]

I thought it was snow stopped the Germans from invading Moscow? It was very early in the war (probably before even America was involved).

I remember the plans for the invasion of England only called to advance as far as London (stab at the heart and all that). They would have been hard pressed to keep any land they took in England and with Russia rolling in it would have been folly to stay. Just like the Romans over a 1,000 years before.

You could do a hundred What If? stories about WWII. My greatest what if is... What if Hilter gained power through techology advances and manufacture. I mean they were inventing rockets, jet engines, and all that. They could have been a industrial power house had they stopped using it to try and conquer their neighbors.

Proven fact "Evil always loses in the end." - Wonder Woman, Justice Friends

HM

 

[Heathen72]

Proven fact "Evil always loses in the end." - Wonder Woman, Justice Friends
HM

Annoying, then, that we always seem to be stuck in the middle.

 

[Relique du Madde]

Actually... what happened in Russia might have been intentional since they knew they could defeat Germany if they played their well worn winter defense card. That being that the if the Russians held out and retreated far enough, they could crush an invader who wasn't used to fighting in, or had their supply lines mired in meters worth of snow. In all its a brilliant if not risky maneuver but it always seems to pan out, especially when the invader gets too greedy or overconfident.

As a side note, it's the same reason why the Russians, Chinese, and North Koreans always do their most brutial training excersizes in the winter, because they know the US never trains in severe winter conditions.

Now if Hitler would have started his major invasion earlier or held thier advance until the spring, thing would have been different, however since he thought he could finish off Stalin before first snow, he got himself pummeled when Stalins winter trained troops became active.