the most common non-magic magic items

Rashak Mani said:
We have a player that as soon as he IDs the monster babbles out all the major details of it... even being a DM myself I have always tried not to read more than I need from the Monster Manual... pisses me off a little when he does it.

I just do it right back.

Whenever the PCs use player knowledge I just point out that the only fair thing to do is use DM knowledge. You know, like where the PCs are hiding, who's low on hp, which guards have the poor listen/spot scores, when and where the PCs are setting an ambush, etc.

It doesn't take long before players realize just how much more valuable DM knowledge is than player knowledge. Usually puts a stop to it right quick.

PS
 

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Rashak Mani said:
We have a player that as soon as he IDs the monster babbles out all the major details of it... even being a DM myself I have always tried not to read more than I need from the Monster Manual... pisses me off a little when he does it.

Simple...stop describing things so well...and stop showing them pictures.

If they want to ID something...decide how hard it is to remember details about it or recognize it and make the characters make an int check, wilderness lore or knowledge nature check.

However well they succeed, give them that much detail.

i.e.
DC 15 = You know it's a dangerous humanoid.
DC 20 = You know it's a bugbear
DC 25 = You know it can seen in the dark.
DC 30 = You know details about their society and combat tactics

If they don't roll well enough...they don't know the details. If someone starts offering details anyway...make it clear to them, they can't do that.

If they ignore you, on the spot just add a few levels of fighter, cleric, sorcerer and the like to the bad guys for a built-in surprise.

Cedric
 


"We have a player that as soon as he IDs the monster babbles out all the major details of it... even being a DM myself I have always tried not to read more than I need from the Monster Manual... pisses me off a little when he does it."

Simply knowing what the monster is and how to defeat it doesn't bother me all that much. For one thing, alot of the guys I've played with have 20 years experience, twice placed top 2 at DragonCon, and naturally have alot of the old products memorized. So, I'm just used to it, and in fact, find it somewhat disconcerting when some other party I'm running doesn't know what to do (typically I end up with a TPK or everyone being chased from the dungeon). For things like Trolls, I expect members of the setting to recognize them and know basically their weaknesses if only from stories told 'round the fire'. Consider that Bilbo recognizes Trolls immediately, despite his sheltered life. I don't find that low level adventures breaking out vials of oil to fight the troll to be that much of a problem, in fact, I'm counting on it or I wouldn't have them face a troll at thier level.

Besides, I'm pretty darn good at varying the depiction of the monster, using seldom seen monsters, and I make up quite a few monsters or give existing ones new and sometimes suprising abilities. Ordinary monsters might be given unusual appearances, and unusual monsters might look ordinary. So, it's never a problem, except when the players _can't_ figure out how to cope.

Once the character has in character knowledge of what he is facing, I often simply say 'You see a Bugbear hunting party', or something.

And I got to disagree with you strongly on one thing. As a DM, it is your responsibility to know those books frontwards and backwards and inside out. If you can't quote passages from it and answer simple questions like 'what is the range on spiritual weapon' without cracking a book, you need to get from behind the screen. There is nothing worse than a DM that doesn't know the rules, and you HAVE to know not only the rules better than the players do ("No sorry but you can't do that, consult the feats description again, see where it says..."), but you also have to know the rules so well that you can keep track of what all your critters are supposed to be doing. Forgetting that some creature is supposed to be provoking a save, or has X resistance, can be very embarassing, slow play, and turn a balanced challenge into a push over. If you don't know the rules, and can't back up your interpretation of them, you are going to be bogged down by endless rules lawyering and attempts to get you to take back something that happened. Remember, a DM should never have to open a book during play. Between consulting your notes, answering querries from players, and making new notes, you just don't have time for that. If you did open a book, you didn't make good enough notes or you haven't spent enough time studing the books one.
 

Celebrim said:
, And I got to disagree with you strongly on one thing. As a DM, it is your responsibility to know those books frontwards and backwards and inside out. If you can't quote passages from it and answer simple questions like 'what is the range on spiritual weapon' without cracking a book, you need to get from behind the screen.

Actually...I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. I never think you should have to be so hung up on the rules that you feel they need to be memorized to that level of detail.

Also, how do you handle running something new? By your definition of what a DM needs to know running something new could never happen.

The rules do not matter nearly as much as the game does. The books provide a guideline that can help you write a story along with your players.

Where I can, I try to discourage people from reshaping D&D into a WarGame.

Cedric

p.s. Obviously this is just my opinion...everyone has the right to choose how they want to enjoy the game.
 

Cedric: Well, again, everything should be prefaced with 'This is just my opinion...', but I'd like to think I have a well considered, experienced opinion. However, if not knowing the rules is not causing a problem in your campaign, more power to you. Don't fix what isn't broken.

But, I'd still say that in general, the DM needs to be the person at the table with the best working knowledge of the rules.

That is not to say that this is the only trait of a qualified DM. BA can be as rules fluent as you want, but if he can't personify, tell a story, be creative, draw upon a sufficiently broad ammount of knowledge to keep his world believable, keep his ego out of the game, and put in the work required to make it come alive he isn't going to make much of a DM.

"Also, how do you handle running something new? By your definition of what a DM needs to know running something new could never happen."

Why? When did I say that nothing new could ever happen? Is this the fabled Hackmaster game with a random table to consult for everything that has ever happened? However, while you want to introduce new things all the time, you want to keep the introduction of new rules mechanics to a minimum. Inventing a new rules mechanic for everything is exactly the problem with a system like 1st ed. D&D. I know, because I used to run 1st ed. D&D and every new thing was a new off the cuff mechanic (and every Dragon article was filled with new ones, and every new monster had its own unique mechanics). Even then though, players could pretty much feel comfortable that what I was going to ask for would fall into several familiar categories: save vs. paralyzation (reflex save mechanic), ability check (skill check mechanic), or opposed roll (basically unchanged in 3rd edition). Third edition just tightens that up, so that rulewise, every new thing is basically a special application of existing rules - which is what you want in a system.

"The rules do not matter nearly as much as the game does."

Sure. The idea here is to seamlessly use the rules. If you don't know the rules, it interupts the flow of the story. This is especially when you rule one way when the player was expecting you to rule otherwise and had every reason (under the rules) to expect you too.

"Where I can, I try to discourage people from reshaping D&D into a WarGame."

Agreed, which is one of the reason I don't want minitures on the table until it is an absolute necessity. Nothing is worse for killing role play than having players acting in third person through some little lead minature. The best role players start out RPing without knowing the rules, which is the way I prefer to train them. But the same is not true for DMs. DM's gotta know the rules. In fact, I've found as 'god', DM's need to know EVERYTHING. Everything in it is your creation, and it only is going to be as detailed as your knowledge is. If you don't have a head for trivia (how are medieval swords made, how is _anything_ made, what is the proper form of a address to a Duke, how much does granite way per cubic foot, what kind of sails are used on a sloop, how much can a canoe carry before swamping, what is the proper term for _anything_, what does a limestone cave actually look like, etc.) then you either don't need to be behind the screen, or you need to be cultivating your knowledge.
 
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Why? When did I say that nothing new could ever happen?

I was speaking of an entirely new game system actually. Or also from the perspective of being a starting DM...getting your initial experience, which sometimes will happen with more experienced players.

You make a really good point concerning flow of the game though...

Sure. The idea here is to seamlessly use the rules. If you don't know the rules, it interupts the flow of the story. This is especially when you rule one way when the player was expecting you to rule otherwise and had every reason (under the rules) to expect you too.

Especially when your interpretation of the rules differs from the players. As a DM if a player catches me on a rules issue, I generally go in their favor with a caveat of "to be looked up later."

In other words, we'll do it this way this time, but don't let it set precedent...I'll look the rule up later and make a permanent ruling.

Cedric
 

Celebrim, sorry but I gotta go against you on this one. While I do happen to have the best rules knowledge of anyone in my group - and believe me that's not saying much - I really don't believe that rules knowledge is that important for a DM.

IME if you have the players' trust then little gaffs in the rules are never very important. For example, my current group has been playing for two years together and we have never had a single argument over rules interpretation, nor had to stop a session for more than twenty minutes to discuss rules interpretations. We're all more concerned with playing. WHen the DM says no, we shrug and move on.

YMMV
 

NooneOfConsequence: Congradulations on finding a group of reasonable, mature, laid back players. Also, it doesn't hurt your situation that all the players are still learning the game. Also, the critical aspect of trust and respect for the DM is established.

But I go to tell you, having a referee that doesn't really understand the rules is not an ideal situation, and in most cases doesn't contribute to trust, respect, and reasonableness.
 


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