D&D 5E The Multiverse is back....

But that's exactly my point... you had to inform them that your campaign differed from the default assumption in that Orcs didn't worship Grummush in your world. The very fact that they HAD that assumption shows that people DO consider such details as part of the core game! A willingness on the part of the players to abandon certain assumptions IN YOUR SPECIFIC CAMPAIGN WORLD does NOT translate into indifference about such details or a willingness to see them deleted from the actual books.
Which is precisely the problem. It shouldn't be a core assumption. But such details in sourcebooks tend to further breed assumptions that make them harder to eradicate from campaigns. You think it's not a problem, but your position is privileged by the books.
 

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"It shouldn't be a core assumption." - Gee, too bad Gary Gygax isn't alive, or you could tell him how wrong he was. I mean, he even put spells in the Player's handbook with names of characters from his own campaign... The various "Bigby", "Mordenkainen", "Tenser", "Tasha", "Otto", etc's spells. I mean, what was he THINKING...?
 

You think it's not a problem, but your position is privileged by the books.

Sorry, I just don't see it. As I said above, I think it's not a problem because I've never seen it in 30 years. I know, it's only anecdotal; the fact that I haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. But I have trouble imagining a player so wrapped up in the incidental lore that s/he can't accept it when something doesn't match. (And I've run more campaigns that don't match the built-in lore than those that do.)
 

Oh. I guess we have differing views on what counts as "campaign specific"; I've always seen the story of Correlon putting out Grummush's eye as being a generic, universal story true in every campaign setting where elves and orcs exist.

<snip>

"The halflings worship the goddess Yondalla" I consider generic.

<snip>

all the worlds (Oerth, Toril, etc.) in 2nd edition shared the same set of planes, so that whatever was true about, say, Yugoloths, was true in all of those worlds, not just one.
"It shouldn't be a core assumption." - Gee, too bad Gary Gygax isn't alive, or you could tell him how wrong he was.
I'm not really sure how Gygax comes into this: as best I am aware Yondalla was created by Jim Ward (for DDG), the myth of Corellon shooting out Gruumsh's eye by Roger E Moore (around Dragon 62), and Gary Gygax's mezzodaemons and nycadaemons (from D3) had nothing to do with any "yugoloths" or Blood War.

I mean, if you want to ret-con AD&D 2nd ed and Planescape ideas back into The Vault of the Drow I'm sure it can be done, but I don't see why anyone is obliged to.
 

I can understand not wanting every campaign setting to have the same cosmology. That makes sense to a certain degree, particularly since the planes have very little to do with D&D adventures at lower levels (unless you're playing Planescape or some similar setting). I can also understand not wanting to feel like the lore in the core rulebooks invalidates other interpretations.

But I don't really understand the idea that you wouldn't want lore in the rulebooks in the first place, because it might differ with your own adventure or campaign's interpretation. That just doesn't make sense to me. The D&D rulebooks have always held certain assumptions about the world they exist within and frankly, I wouldn't want it any other way. We can differ over which lore we like better - whether dwarves were the slaves of giants or have an adversarial relationship with goblinoids - but I'm getting the increasing sense some people would rather there was no lore at all if it wasn't the lore they preferred. And that strikes me as both really adversarial and (assuming WotC followed through) really boring reading for splatbooks.

I buy D&D books about half and half for their gameplay value and the fluff. I may or may not be a typical player in that regard but I don't think I'm that unusual. A lot of people - as this thread has shown beyond a doubt - care immensely about how different races fit into a generic D&D world, regardless of setting. In light of that, he idea that we might be better off with an endless list of multiple choice origins or no origins at all strikes me as pretty absurd. Honestly, I'd rather have lore I don't like as much than no lore at all.
 

Except, again, this is just AD&D's version of the planes you're describing - not Planescape specifically.

Kinda, sorta though. If you go by simply core material, not the expanded supplements, the default cosmology is a bare skeleton with virtually no details. The abyss has 666 layers and demons live there. There are 9 layers of the hells and Asmodeus is the ruler. That's about it. What does the fifth layer of Hell look like? Until you get into supplements, there's no information. It looks like whatever you want it to look like. How big is each layer? Who lives on each layer, whatever, is pretty much left up to the DM.

I must respectfully point out that the back stories everyone here seems to regard as an intrusion and as disposable fluff, are what many fans considered an indispensable element of what they LIKE about D&D and made the game attractive to them in the first place! D&D is not a fantasy version of GURPS, and people shouldn't try to make it fit that mold. Hussar would probably LOVE GURPS - nothing but character/monster creation rules and zero backstory. But I believe that the reason D&D has outlived so many imitators is precisely because of STORY... backgrounds that make the game come alive. Don't think so? Look at the outcry when 4e ditched almost every traditional piece of lore and substituted a new background and a new set of planes. Planescape fans weren't the only ones crying foul. And the lore about the demihuman deities goes back further than "Monster Mythology", FYI... at least as far back as 1e's "Deities and Demigods". For many players and dms, the story of the epic fight between Correlon and Grummush is as much a core part of D&D as character classes and spells.

Oh, I know. I totally agree with you. I completely agree with you. The problem that I have though is exactly what you talk about. Any change is automatically bad. No change can ever be judged solely on its merits but on how well it maintains whatever came before. But, again, this only seems to apply to Planescape elements.

I mean, now kobolds are tiny dragon people tied to Tiamat whose god is locked away in a labyrinth. That's MILES from what kobolds have been in the past, but, these changes pass without any comment. Why is it perfectly acceptable to completely rewrite kobolds to the point where they aren't even recognisable - completely different societies, different origins and different associations - but changing an eladrin from super angel elf to playable character race is met with constant hue and cry and never ending criticism? Same with tieflings.

Why do Planar elements get preferential treatment?

Where are people running into all these players who cause problems with their initial assumptions?

I'm not denying they could exist, but in 30+ years of playing, I've never met anyone--experienced player or newbie, 9 years old or 39--who didn't just say, "Oh, okay" when informed that orcs don't worship Gruumsh in this campaign, or that kobolds are more dog-like than draconic in that one. (Or whatever.)

From my perspective, it's not the players, but the supplements that I have a problem with. The fact that every single article MUST adhere to a single vision. Every module, every racial write-up, every splat book, every setting, must be shoehorned and forced into this single mould. No other part of the game gets treated like this. We rewrite halflings in every setting without a problem. We flat out remove races from some settings, and it's fine. But there can be only one Abyss, one Nine Hells, one Mechanus, no matter what and every setting must adhere to that.
 

I can understand not wanting every campaign setting to have the same cosmology. That makes sense to a certain degree, particularly since the planes have very little to do with D&D adventures at lower levels (unless you're playing Planescape or some similar setting). I can also understand not wanting to feel like the lore in the core rulebooks invalidates other interpretations.

But I don't really understand the idea that you wouldn't want lore in the rulebooks in the first place, because it might differ with your own adventure or campaign's interpretation. That just doesn't make sense to me. The D&D rulebooks have always held certain assumptions about the world they exist within and frankly, I wouldn't want it any other way. We can differ over which lore we like better - whether dwarves were the slaves of giants or have an adversarial relationship with goblinoids - but I'm getting the increasing sense some people would rather there was no lore at all if it wasn't the lore they preferred. And that strikes me as both really adversarial and (assuming WotC followed through) really boring reading for splatbooks.

I buy D&D books about half and half for their gameplay value and the fluff. I may or may not be a typical player in that regard but I don't think I'm that unusual. A lot of people - as this thread has shown beyond a doubt - care immensely about how different races fit into a generic D&D world, regardless of setting. In light of that, he idea that we might be better off with an endless list of multiple choice origins or no origins at all strikes me as pretty absurd. Honestly, I'd rather have lore I don't like as much than no lore at all.

I'm all for lore in the core books. I think it's perfectly fine to have all sorts of background information. What I don't want is the following:

  • Lore that is so ingrained that it can never be changed.
  • Meta-level lore which ties entire swaths of the game to a single unified "story".
  • Lore that becomes privileged to the point that any contradictory lore gets shouted down.

In other words, if I want to buy a module that takes place in the Abyss, I should be able to do so without that module having several pages of Planescape baggage attached to it. If I buy a Monster Manual, it's perfectly fine for there to be conflicting lore in it, IMO. What's wrong with the lore being unreliable? Why does every bit of lore automatically have to be taken as gospel canon? Why can't I get a lore writeup that says, "Here is one example of a kobold" and in the next Monster Manual get, "Here's another example of a Kobold that contradicts the first MM"?

Once you establish the idea of canon for a given game element, it becomes extremely difficult to break away from that canon. I want a dozen different ideas of what an X is, rather than one idea that will then be perpetuated in every single supplement from that point forward.
 

Games without settings and lore are less fun than those with. I have meet many casual gamers who like the core lore of a game like D&D or Exalted or Traveller. It makes for quick familiarity and access to roleplaying "handles". I also find that if the GM announces a variant to the core lore, people say " fine ", " interesting " or "your game, your variant"
 

Kinda, sorta though. If you go by simply core material, not the expanded supplements, the default cosmology is a bare skeleton with virtually no details. The abyss has 666 layers and demons live there. There are 9 layers of the hells and Asmodeus is the ruler. That's about it. What does the fifth layer of Hell look like? Until you get into supplements, there's no information. It looks like whatever you want it to look like. How big is each layer? Who lives on each layer, whatever, is pretty much left up to the DM.


The 1st edition Manual of the Planes covers a bit more than that though, and that's the foundational basis of both 2nd edition's cosmology generally and Planescape specifically (though the latter does play with several of the assumptions within the book). Each layer of Hell gets a paragraph in the book and all of the Outer Planes get some pretty detailed sub-sections all of their own.


But I'll admit that whether MotP is "core" or not is a matter of opinion (it's certainly designed to be generic enough to be used in most campaigns though).


I mean, now kobolds are tiny dragon people tied to Tiamat whose god is locked away in a labyrinth. That's MILES from what kobolds have been in the past, but, these changes pass without any comment. Why is it perfectly acceptable to completely rewrite kobolds to the point where they aren't even recognisable - completely different societies, different origins and different associations - but changing an eladrin from super angel elf to playable character race is met with constant hue and cry and never ending criticism? Same with tieflings.

Why do Planar elements get preferential treatment?


If I may hazard a guess? It's a matter of perceived importance and what people are prone to getting attached to.


Kobolds have always been minor monsters. Indeed, until they started acquiring dragon-like characteristics they were explicitly little more than canon fodder for low-level characters to earn XP from. Until the dragon lore was stuck onto them there was little to distinguish them from any number of similarly low-level threats that disappeared as soon as players had accrued enough experience. They still more or less fill that role, but they're actually in some ways more distinctive than goblins now, who're now considerably more generic by comparison. So the change was for one thing (I believe) perceived mostly positively. More importantly though, it was to a critter very few people cared about at all.


Tieflings and eladrin through are very different. Tieflings were already a "cult classic" race before 4e came along. They were never core, no, but they were popular enough to jump ship from Planescape when the setting was dropped during 3rd edition and land in the Forgotten Realms, which kept most of their basic lore intact. And while I doubt very many people cared much about eladrin in pre-4e D&D they did fit into a cosmological order that had been around for a couple of editions and which people did care about - which was the arrangement of the Outer Planes and the division of outsiders into celestials and fiends (among other creatures). Not to mention, of course, that 4e eladrin stepped very much on the toes of what people considered to be "elves," causing a lot of players to cry foul when it was suddenly declared that high elves and gray elves weren't really elves anymore but this new entirely different race that meant something else in a previous edition.


Let's not forget either that tieflings and eladrin/elves were player races, which intrinsically attract a lot more attention than monster races like kobolds (yes, you could make a kobold PC, but I think it's fair to say they were even rarer than planetouched PCs in pre-4e). You can bet that if 4e had tried to radically change the lore and mechanics of dwarves, people who have been pretty upset as well (indeed, I was more than a little annoyed that 4e tried to rewrite half-orcs into some non-hybrid race that didn't require human/orc breeding).


In summary, people care different amounts about different stuff. It isn't so much that the planes are intrinsically more resistant to change - it's just that a lot of people care a lot more about the planes, tieflings, and elves than they do kobolds. Likewise, a lot of FR fans were really upset by 4e lore changes that had nothing to do with the planes and everything to do with trappings of the Realms they considered sacrosanct.



From my perspective, it's not the players, but the supplements that I have a problem with. The fact that every single article MUST adhere to a single vision. Every module, every racial write-up, every splat book, every setting, must be shoehorned and forced into this single mould. No other part of the game gets treated like this.


I don't think that's really true. Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 each have their own very specific lore, though it comes with the caveat that a lot of in-universe sources aren't very reliable. Pathfinder has a pretty defined setting in Golarion, complete with its own version of the Great Wheel. Both versions of World of Darkness have a unified meta-narrative (though each separate to the other). Eclipse Phase has a defined world setting. So does Shadowrun. And so on. I'd say a core setting where there's a single vision is actually the norm for most tabletop RPGs. The fact that D&D gives full official support to numerous different worlds is actually kind of unusual.


In other words, if I want to buy a module that takes place in the Abyss, I should be able to do so without that module having several pages of Planescape baggage attached to it.


I'm not sure how that would actually work actually. If it's a commercial module that's supposed to take place in the Abyss, it kind of has to commit itself to certain worldbuilding details, at which point it either conflicts with Planescape (or another setting) or it doesn't.


If I buy a Monster Manual, it's perfectly fine for there to be conflicting lore in it, IMO. What's wrong with the lore being unreliable? Why does every bit of lore automatically have to be taken as gospel canon? Why can't I get a lore writeup that says, "Here is one example of a kobold" and in the next Monster Manual get, "Here's another example of a Kobold that contradicts the first MM"?


I actually don't mind having unreliable lore but I think a lot of players (and GMs) expect there to be a defined "norm." And it's okay to defy that norm, but you kind of do want to have a baseline. I think a lot of people would find it a bit strange if the section on orcs had three different entries describing for orcs, depending on whether they were more similar to Tolkien's fallen elves, Warcraft's shamanistic warriors, or Warhammer's warmongering hordes. Different interpretations are usually setting-specific, such as Eberron's death-worshiping elves or Dark Sun's cannibalistic halflings.


The other thing is that every option demonstrated is still, intrinsically, something someone chose instead of someone else. Unless you're going to have infinite options (which is obviously absurd) you have to draw the line somewhere. At which point someone might well ask "why A, B, and C instead of X, Y, and Z?"
 

I mean, now kobolds are tiny dragon people tied to Tiamat whose god is locked away in a labyrinth. That's MILES from what kobolds have been in the past, but, these changes pass without any comment. Why is it perfectly acceptable to completely rewrite kobolds to the point where they aren't even recognisable - completely different societies, different origins and different associations - but changing an eladrin from super angel elf to playable character race is met with constant hue and cry and never ending criticism? Same with tieflings.



Different scenario, no names were stolen and creature types changed with the kobold (and it still references original deities). Same thing with archons (not cool to have them being LG exemplar celestials for 2 editions, to suddenly steal the name for elemental warriors).
 

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