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D&D 5E The Multiverse is back....

Hussar

Legend
Wait what...so is the argument that WotC doesn't publish people's personal Planescape campaign outcomes in official products? Because if so, we've stepped into the realm of setting totally absurd and impossible standards for change to be possible in a setting.

For me the biggest official indicator that significant change was possible in Planescape was Faction War... now we can sit here and hypothesize that some planned future sourcebook would have eventually allowed the factions back into Sigil and (somehow) brought back the factions that were destroyed... but it didn't happen, things weren't officially fixed and that was the end state of Planescape when the setting came to an end. I honestly don't see how anyone can argue this wasn't a significant change to the Planescape setting especially with the uproar and division it caused among Planescape fans.

No, the argument is that WOTC won't publish anything that significantly changes the setting. Note, I was more talking about The Planes as a setting, than Planescape specifically. To be honest, I don't follow Planescape, so, I cannot really comment on factions. I wouldn't know a Faction from a hole in the ground, so, "Faction War" doesn't mean anything to me.

OTOH, did the Blood War change? Or, look at the all the angst over 4e changes to any of The Planes creatures. That's the argument that I'm making. That the primary concern is maintaining The Planes canon, while, outside of The Planes, pretty much anything is fair game.
 

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pemerton

Legend
if I understand you, the key difference for you is that the PC in your vampyr example has to choose between conflicting desires, between two things that are incompatible in that scenario

<snip>

So lets extend the PS example as well, by putting it in the same context.

<snip>

as the Xaositect and the Guvners do battle, the city around them is erupting into riots and looting and general anarchy

<snip>

Your success is leading to very real horror being perpetrated on innocent people. Are you OK with that? Is that a price you're willing to pay for success?

<snip>

The Xaositect may believe the Guvner is wrong, but she also knows that the Guvnor has the power to be right, to make the multiverse conform to their ideals.

<snip>

The fact that this chaos is going to cause some legitimate disaster.
For me there is a tension here, because the I find the notions of "very real horror" and "legitimate disaster" to be at odds with "the power to be right by making the multiverse conform to my ideals".

This is what I have describd upthread as the relativistic aspect of Planescape.

The Xaositect can make the riots either go away, or become the right outcome, by imposing his/her beliefs on the world. As I also said upthread, with reference to existentialists such as Camus, Sartre and Nietzsche, I don't think this is a hopeless basis for dramatic conflict, but I think it is challenging, hard to pull off in an RPG, and not that appealing to me personally.

where I fail to follow you is in noting why any of that entertainment is not of real-world value or significance. These all have real-world value, emotional value.
Solving a crossword puzzle has real-world emotional payoff (ie satisfaction). But it doesn't achieve that payoff by engaging with other values. It is not narrative fiction, it is a puzzle.

Tomb of Horrors is not narrative fiction either. Nor is White Plume Mountain. ToH is analogous to a crossword puzzle. WPM is more like a board game - I compared it upthread to Talisman. (I think it is too wahoo to be a crossword puzzle.) Both are RPG scenarios, and so both involve fictional positioning - ie the adjudication of player moves, which (in an RPG) take the form of action decarations for PC, by reference to the ingame fiction. But they do not involve narrative.

None of the previous paragraph is a criticism. (Sometimes on my train ride home I read a book. More often I do a crossword puzzle.) It is an analysis.

Narrative fiction provides entertainment in a different fashion from crossword puzzles and board games. And different narratives provide different sorts of entertainment. A James Bond movie, for instance, involves no dramatic conflict. There is purely procedural conflict (ie how will Bond get out of this one?). The emotional payoff is in terms of anxiety and release.

Casablanca has elements of this - eg when Strasser is racing to the airport to stop the plane - but the bulk of the film is dramatic conflict. When Rick has to decide whether or not to let the band play the Marseillaise, the conflict is not purely procedural (how will Rick get out of this one?). It is dramatic (will he choose self-interest or loyalty to Ilsa and to liberty?)

PS is designed as a way to play D&D, so it doesn't necessarily focus on your preferred way any more than any other given D&D setting focuses on it (which is to say, they don't, really). Adding the elements you prefer to PS is just as easy as adding them to any other bit of D&D, I imagine.
It's a little late in the day to play the "You're doing it wrong" card, isn't it? (In my case, over 25 years.)

And I've already pointed in this thread to a D&D setting that does what I want it to write off the page - namely, 4e's PoL. In other thread, incuding ones I'm sure you've participated in, I've also pointed to 1985's Oriental Adventures.

I don't see why these threads have to resolve with those who don't like Planescape, or do like 4e, being told they should be playing another game.
 


pemerton

Legend
Anybody else feel like this thread's gotten a little edition-warry? I think it's gotten a little edition-warry.
I feel that when I have explained, over multiple lengthy posts, why one D&D setting worked for me and another didn't, I don't find a reply very fruitful that says "[Plansescape] doesn't necessarily focus on your preferred way any more than any other given D&D setting focuses on it (which is to say, they don't, really). Adding the elements you prefer to PS is just as easy as adding them to any other bit of D&D, I imagine."

I didn't have to add anything to 4e. Or to Oriental Adventures. For that matter, I didn't have to add anything except a name to the chaos priest in Keep on the Borderlands.

That's a dismissive reply, to a post that was not dismissive of those to whom I replied. I thought it was against board rules to tell people they're playing the wrong game, or the game wrong.
 


Imaro

Legend
And you may see themes, hooks, etc for dynamic play in Planescape, but you haven't given any examples. Viking Bastard and Quickleaf have, and I've responded to those in some recent posts upthread, including explaining what I think they have seen that I haven't, and also what I might be inclined to handle differently from what they have described.

Why should I give you more examples, the ones you've gotten from other posters haven't made you reconsider your position... what are the one's I post really going to accomplish? The fact of the matter is you've gotten examples of people finding and using exactly what you are talking about in Planescape and instead of you considering the fact that they are proof that Planescape can be played in you're preferred playstyle and that it may be you're own interpretations and/or lack of Planescape knowledge that may be the problem, you've instead commented on their examples and then for the purposes of the larger conversation ignored them. So yeah not seeing the point to adding more word count that will be ignored when it comes to the bigger picture.
 

Mr Fixit

Explorer
Anybody else feel like this thread's gotten a little edition-warry? I think it's gotten a little edition-warry.

For me, it's not that it's gotten edition-warry, but that certain contributors' posts are almost indecipherable to me. I have no idea what is meant by half the stuff that's written here. :)
 

Imaro

Legend
No, the argument is that WOTC won't publish anything that significantly changes the setting. Note, I was more talking about The Planes as a setting, than Planescape specifically. To be honest, I don't follow Planescape, so, I cannot really comment on factions. I wouldn't know a Faction from a hole in the ground, so, "Faction War" doesn't mean anything to me.

Well if you knew about the factions in Planescape, you'd realize it was a pretty big change to the setting, especially as i said before how it caused an uproar in a large segment of the fanbase... not sure what else to say, I show you an example of the type of change you claim Planescape doesn't have and your reply is... I really don't know about this major aspect of the setting. Not sure what to tell you at this point except your lack of knowledge on something doesn't impact whether it is or isn't a significant change.

OTOH, did the Blood War change?

Is this the only change that qualifies as significant in Planescape?

Or, look at the all the angst over 4e changes to any of The Planes creatures. That's the argument that I'm making. That the primary concern is maintaining The Planes canon, while, outside of The Planes, pretty much anything is fair game.

Wait so they did make drastic changes to planar lore (Proving they aren't unwilling to do it)and... it wasn't well received by many. Seems like the smart thing to do would be to revert back... or are you saying WotC should force changes onto a fanbase even when they don't particularly like or care for them? In fact is it WotC you're irritated with, or the fanbase?
 

ThirdWizard

First Post
I'd want to turn the screw one more bit: when the Xaositect starts making the plan, beings of law somehow get dealt into the situation. I'm not sure how I'd do that - modrons don't strike me as having the write vibe, but maybe inevitables do - but I like where you're going.

For me, these are the sorts of things that leap of the 4e page at me, but don't when it comes to Planescape. It's good to hear stories from others who did have that page-leaping experience.

And you may see themes, hooks, etc for dynamic play in Planescape, but you haven't given any examples. Viking Bastard and Quickleaf have, and I've responded to those in some recent posts upthread, including explaining what I think they have seen that I haven't, and also what I might be inclined to handle differently from what they have described.

Part of the reason you haven't been hearing stories like these is perhaps because it's been kind of difficult to parse what you're saying/looking for at times.

I think I understand where you're coming from now, though. Here's an anecdote from my personal play.

I played a Harmonium. He was a former escapee of the Blood War who believed in Law as a lifestyle. Law, to him, was important itself due to his upbringing to be a soldier his entire life and the orderly lifestyle he lived, and his long association with fiends had caused a backlash in which he wanted to do the right thing from then on. That's what drew him to the Harmonium. He saw their ideals as aligning with his, and joined up in their ranks.

The other PC in the group (2 person party) was in the Fraternity of Order. He believed in Law as a means to an end, a way for him to understand existence, and propel himself forward. He had grown up on the streets, using every trick up his sleeve. He saw the Guvners as doing the same thing - taking Law to the obvious conclusion of strategizing and loopholes to gain every advantage that he could muster so that he would be in control of his own destiny.

These two characters were both lawful, both in allied factions, and worked well together most of the time. However, their goals and means were decidedly different, which caused internal party conflict, which was the main focus of several key points in each session. So, the question wasn't, usually, who the enemy was but instead what to do with the enemy and how to approach the various situations we found ourselves in. As a quick example of one of the ways this came out in play, Harmonium have their own internal stance/beliefs as to who to arrest while Guvners have intricate knowledge of case law to back them up. This would lead to situations where the Guvner character could trump up charges against people to use as leverage against them, wherein my character would balk at such notations. It would also lead to situations where my character believed that a city ordinance meant one thing, but the Guvner would bring up case law to point out my mistakes. Who would buckle first, or what compromises would occur were the meat of the game.

The biggest issue that ever came to a head was when we went on a mission to recover distilled negative energy in liquid form from a necromancer. My character was all gung ho about vanquishing the necromancer, which the Guvner went along with because it was easier than telling me that his direct supervisor wanted to study the necromancer's experiments. When the liquid was recovered, the big question was what do we do with it? I wanted it destroyed because it broke the natural order and could be used as a weapon. The other PC wanted to examine it for the same reasons. In the end, it caused lots of drama between the two of us, and a rift that manifested for several sessions afterward.

There were also other things. My devotion to my religion vs. my devotion to the Harmonium. My hatred of fiends vs. my responsibility to remain neutral as a city official. My belief in following the city's rules vs. sometimes having to bend the law to make the city a safer place. Yes, sometimes he broke the tenets of the Harmonium. He wasn't a saint or a modron. He progressed to join a third organization that was loosely related to his religion because of the way the campaign progressed.

So, I would say, the conflict between party members has been a big driving force in this style of play. If your party contains different Factions (which is almost certainly will) then even allied members can have wildly different perspectives to any given situation.

I don't think the Faction War is a good example at all (at least not in the way Pemerton means it, I don't really understand Hussar's stand), not any more than the line-ending-apocalypse-modules of oWoD. Without the factions, you don't really have PS anymore--you just have the Great Wheel, which is really just a string of adventure locales (which is fine for what it is). You loose the setting's character buy-in. It's like Vampire without the clans and the Masquerade.

PS didn't really have much metaplot and I don't think it takes well to it, either. In my mind, metaplot undermines the entire basis of the setting (much like it does for, say, Ravenloft).

I, for one, absolutely hated Faction War, and I dislike metaplot as a concept. If you're just going to invalidate a bunch of stuff in the original boxed set, then what was the point in my buying it. I hate what they did with Dark Sun as well. I know novels pretty much mean metaplot will happen, but it really bugs me when they change things about the setting or move the years up or whatever. I just want a starting point from which to make it my own. I don't want to have to keep up with shenanigans going on in novels or some adventure making my purchase of, for example, Factol's Manifesto worthless.

So put me down for never change anything, please.

OTOH, did the Blood War change? Or, look at the all the angst over 4e changes to any of The Planes creatures. That's the argument that I'm making. That the primary concern is maintaining The Planes canon, while, outside of The Planes, pretty much anything is fair game.

You might as well ask when D&D canon will have the githzerai and the githyanki form an alliance with the mind flayers. It could happen in a very specific setting instance, but it will never happen in D&D Core, and criticizing the fact that the D&D doesn't have non-hostile githzerai and githyanki is no different, in most people's eyes, than criticizing the fact that D&D doesn't have non-hostile demons and devils in the default game assumptions.
 


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