D&D 5E The Multiverse is back....

Remathilis

Legend
But it wouldn't be a wheel.

Once you get rid of alignment, for instance, there is no reason to have Asgard adjacent to Olympus and Limbo. It's heroic morality actually means that it has more in common with the Happy Hunting Grounds than with Limbo.

Arcardia and the Twin Paradises also seem to me to have more in common (including their pastoral themes) than either does with the Seven Heavens.

Hence my comment upthread, that once you drop alignment the Great Wheel has no logic to it. It's organisation becomes arbitrary, and there is really nothing to choose between it and the Astral Sea.

Not entirely.

Even if you file the alignments off demons, devils, archons, eladrin, etc but described them roughly the same as they are now (devils follow a strict hierarchy and enjoy torment, eladrin are loosely aligned and seek to aid mortals) you'd still end up with a rough upper/lower split, unless you are fine with demons being neighbors with angels. It wouldn't necessarily be a circle, but you'd still end up with the planes of niceness in closer proximity to one another and the planes of wickedness near one another. Right there, you have a very basic wheel forming. Its only the Law/Chaos axis (which, debated 30 pages ago, is a pretty D&D unique idea) that forces the rigidness of making Heaven and Hell closer to Mechanus than they are to Limbo.

My point was that the alignment system doesn't FORCE there to be a Devil/Hell vs. Demon/Abyss split in the lower planes; and you could realistically build the Great Wheel as is without actually using the Nine D&D Alignments (4e retroactively fit it in the 5-alignment system, for example). Alignments =/= Great Wheel, Great Wheel =/= Alignments. They are one option among many (as you pointed out).
 

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Quickleaf

Legend
That sounds like good stuff.

The tropes are Planescape-y (a once-fallen deva, the River Styx, a memory-restoring flower, etc) but I'm not seeing anything here about obective vs subjective value as a key element of setting or of play. To me it just looks like good old-fashioned roleplaying: the players had goals and commitments for their PCs, the GM put these into (prima facie) conflict, and the players dealt with that conflict, in this case by coming up with an all-round satisfactory outcome.

Whether the PCs did the right thing or not is not something that the setting and other ingame material gives an answer to - it's a matter of audience judgement, just as for any other fiction.
Yes, it was definitely good old fashioned role-playing.

Perhaps the "power of belief" was subtle in my example and not readily evident, but what distinguished my example from my other non-Planescape experiences with D&D was that the players were making decisions about the nature of reality (in this case, about the nature of memory). For example, one of the questions hidden within the conflict was "Given the same set of traumatic memories, will the same person always respond the same way twice?" To answer that question was to assert a truth about the nature of memory, choice, and self. In the case of my players, given their actions with resolving the deva dilemma, their implied answer was something like: "It depends on the severity of the traumatic memory. We can respond differently to less severe memories, but the ones of utmost severity doom us to a single response we cannot alter."

That then became a truth to the "multiverse state" in my game.

I don't see the shaping of truth through the power of belief. This could in part because I don't know how the actions were resolved, and hence success achieved.

Eg if, once the players have reached a mutually satisfactory settlement, did the GM just "say yes"? For me, that would be something that takes place at the metagame level - the interesting play material in the situation has been dealt with, so now we narrate the scene closed and move onto the next interesting thing. But maybe the GM "saying yes" is seen as corresponding to some actual even/causal power within the setting?

The faction-derived powers also seem to have been relevant, but that would seem to be belief leading to truth only in an instrumental sense: conviction leads to faction-derived powers, and those powers then allow doing stuff, and so in that instrumental fashion belief shaped truth - but that is really no different from any conviction-derived powers (eg a cleric's spells in standard D&D).

Maybe there's something else that I'm missing here?
Ah, you're looking for the specific mechanism by which "power of belief" moved beyond being instrumental to being...more direct?

In looking at my Planescape game in retrospect, I tended to follow a progression of the PCs' beliefs having an instrumental effect at first, then developing to more direct causality over time, until the world state was evidenced as changed because of the PCs' beliefs.

In my example of play, the PCs made some conclusions about the nature of memory and self that later were reflected back at them. They decided that the same person would always react the same way to severe enough an experience...but what defines a "same person"? Since both PCs were Sensates, they tended to believe more in experience over innate nature in defining a person. So, if the same person had a different life experience then they might respond differently to the same severe trauma.

I came up with a group of Sensate mystics who offered sensory stones (magical stones used to record experiences) that could overwrite one's own memories in a ritual. A lot like Total Recall. Of course, others with less pure motives got involved seeing it as a method for control & brainwashing, but there were also those suffering from troubled memories who benefited. The PCs decided that the experiences were illusory and shut down the mystics.

To further test/reflect their belief, I introduced an NPC who existed in three reincarnated forms, each the same core identity/personality, yet with different life experiences. All three versions of the NPC loved the same erinyes (one hoped to redeem her with his love, another willingly went to the hellfire for her, and the last loved her despite knowing she was irredeemably evil and not trusting her). The PCs were in conflict with the erinyes and ended up killing her, turning the three versions of the NPC against them (possibly charm magic was involved, can't remember exactly). However, the PCs argued with the NPC for their belief that the different life experiences of the three versions allowed them to respond differently. As a result of that belief (which the PCs had proven themselves believing in), two versions of the NPC relented and sough peace, though one version persisted in fighting and was destroyed by the PCs.

Later on, they found Sensates (as well as other NPCs they'd crossed paths with) seeking out specific experiences to deliberately change their response to past traumas. Advances were made in treatment of the mentally ill, the Sensates becoming the R&D side of e Bleak Cabal who ran the asylum (which became much more humane). A group of celestials used the PCs as an example to redeem fiends (and that fiends *could* be redeemed became an extension of the PCs' beliefs). And the Mage PC had some dramatic roleplaying about turning away from her dark side, thanks to her belief in the power of her experiences.

The power of belief may not have been directly obvious in the sense of "I imagine a spoon! *POOF* A spoon!" But my players and I definitely felt the world state had changed as a result of their PCs' beliefs, and in more than just an instrumental sense.
 

pemerton

Legend
Even if you file the alignments off demons, devils, archons, eladrin, etc but described them roughly the same as they are now (devils follow a strict hierarchy and enjoy torment, eladrin are loosely aligned and seek to aid mortals) you'd still end up with a rough upper/lower split, unless you are fine with demons being neighbors with angels. It wouldn't necessarily be a circle, but you'd still end up with the planes of niceness in closer proximity to one another and the planes of wickedness near one another.
I agree there woud still be upper and lower planes (heavens and hells). I don't think there would be any real reason to identify Pandemonium as being more like Olympus than the Twin Paradises, though, or Hades as more like Elysium than the Happy Hunting Grounds.

My own view is that, in this arrangement, Nirvana would be an upper plane (heaven for monk) and limbo a lower plane (I had assimilated slaads to demons long before 4e did much the same thing).
 

I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I agree there woud still be upper and lower planes (heavens and hells). I don't think there would be any real reason to identify Pandemonium as being more like Olympus than the Twin Paradises, though, or Hades as more like Elysium than the Happy Hunting Grounds.

Maps reveal the biases of the mapmakers. If someone considered the idea of the conflict between personal autonomy and social responsibility to be something that influenced the map they were making (something they wanted to depict), then Pandemonium would certainly be more like Arborea than it would be like Bytopia! Pandemonium and Arborea are all about the individual, your own personal experiences. Bytopia is outwardly focused, on the hard labor in a hard land that produces community cooperation.

My own view is that, in this arrangement, Nirvana would be an upper plane (heaven for monk) and limbo a lower plane (I had assimilated slaads to demons long before 4e did much the same thing).

It would probably still depend on what one thought of as nice and pleasant. Any map that separated upper and lower would still show the biases of the mapmaker. The githzerai monks might arrange the planes as nested "spheres", with Limbo being at the center as it is the most open to individual perspectives, and sticking Mechanus outside, as it is the most alien to the individual. A rogue modron might perceive of a map where every plane is just a cog in the Grand Machine except for Limbo, which is what the machine takes in, turning it to order. And a devil would probably put Hell at the top of a great mountain, and Celestia as a deep pit. Maybe they'd leave Arborea off entirely. ("No, there is no such place, you must have heard one too many Clueless babbling.")

This is all something that happens in PS anyway, and part of why the claim "the great wheel makes no sense without alignments!" seems a little short-sighted to me. Even without explicit mechanical alignment, it's easy to understand that one can still see the planes in terms of an axis of "empathy for others" / "exploitation of others" and an axis of "respect for external principles" / "respect for personal ideals," and that would still give us pretty much the Great Wheel. Scrubbing the labels off doesn't do much, functionally, to remove the planes' character from the meaning those labels have in the setting.
 
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I'm not here to debate Plato and Nietzsche. All I can say is that PS presents a setting in which personal belief makes truth, and reality is contingent on what other people believe to be reality. The point of bringing up the notion of Greek hospitality as Chaotic Evil and then changing to not really a thing that decides cosmic alignment was to demonstrate how belief even determines what alignment is. Belief that a thing is evil makes it so. Belief that a thing is not evil makes it so. In absence of a strong belief, other people define this for you. With a strong belief (which every PS player character should have!), you get to define that for others.

And this is why Planescape is a morally bankrupt setting with no force in it other than "Might makes right" and that is by means of its very plasticity unsuitable for discussions as to the nature of good and evil or any other deep philosophy.

If a hypothetical faction decides that raising humans in cages to render down for perfume when they hit the age of 16 is good and they become sufficiently powerful then in Planescape it is by definition good. At that point you've destroyed any inherent meaning to the words "good" and "evil".

Again, I don't think the alignment is definitional, but rather utilitarian. Planescape is for someone who wants to run D&D without cartoon morality, and it uses alignment to do this by showing how alignment isn't an objective truth, but rather a subjective belief.

On the contrary. Planescape has the most cartoonish morality of all D&D settings I know of. The idea that the PCs and limited NPCs have the idea to change the nature of good and evil is a level of protagonist centred morality that would make the writers of Saturday Morning Cartoons blush.

Planescape doesn't NEED to use alignment to do this, I feel (you can have a PS game without alignment, the most iconic PS game needn't use alignment to function, it just needs people to accept the malleability of everything), but it chooses do, and that choice is a rational one, with some benefits. And some costs -- one of the sticking points seems to be folks who aren't able to easily accept PS's re-definition of what alignment is!

If they were not using words in a directly contrary fashion to their normal meanings there would have been less of a problem.

Planescape could work pretty well with a two axis morality. Instead of Law and Chaos you get Keep and Change (i.e. do you want the current structure to change), and instead of Good and Evil you get Status Quo vs Revolution (do you think the current order within that structure should stay?) So the demon who likes the current cosmology but thinks they should be in charge is a Revolutionary Keeper.

And that makes for some very interesting alliances.

Since in PS, good and evil is a matter of opinion, even without alignment, the Great Wheel is still just what people think good and evil are, layed out in a map.

Except it isn't a matter of opinion. It's a cosmological force held by whoever is strongest. You can measure what is good and what is evil. You can then change that if you have the might - because that makes it right.

Maps reveal the biases of the mapmakers. If someone considered the idea of the conflict between personal autonomy and social responsibility to be something that influenced the map they were making (something they wanted to depict), then Pandemonium would certainly be more like Arborea than it would be like Bytopia!

But that isn't the world Planescape creates. Planescape creates a world in which a conspiracy of mapmakers can turn the world into a Mercator Projection. The Great Wheel is there. Yes, you can say that Britain is more like Japan than it is like France - and in some ways you are right. But there's still a lot of geography that matters. The Great Wheel is like the globe in that respect. Either that or you are massively undercutting what was the premise by not having beliefs actually change the cosmology.

This is all something that happens in PS anyway, and part of why the claim "the great wheel makes no sense without alignments!" seems a little short-sighted to me. Even without explicit mechanical alignment, it's easy to understand that one can still see the planes in terms of an axis of "empathy for others" / "exploitation of others" and an axis of "respect for external principles" / "respect for personal ideals," and that would still give us pretty much the Great Wheel. Scrubbing the labels off doesn't do much, functionally, to remove the planes' character from the meaning those labels have in the setting.

On the contrary. It does everything to those meanings. The world is an oblate spheroid. Sure there are multiple map projections. And many more than that when we get into social geography. But the Great Wheel being core privileges a certain one in the same way that physics privileges the oblate spheroid.
 

Siberys

Adventurer
All of this discussion about the philosophical suitability of Planescape is kinda orthogonal to the point of the thread (at least as it started out), isn't it?

My problem with PS is with how it's pushed down other settings' throats as a metasetting. On its own? Cool. Not my style, but alright - different strokes. I liked the World Axis better, but that had the same "forced metasetting" issue, so that's not particularly relevant. I'd rather that the core assumed cosmology was "fuzzier," if that makes sense.

As for the philosophical viability of PS - regardless of whether the setting's conceit is philosphically viable - can't peple still use it as a vehicle for exploring the factions' beliefs? I mean, I don't find it philosophically viable, but (for example) [MENTION=20323]Quickleaf[/MENTION]'s description of his Sensate campaign sounds like it was interesting and fun, even if the background of "belief shapes reality" isn't particularly sound.
 

Mirtek

Hero
If a hypothetical faction decides that raising humans in cages to render down for perfume when they hit the age of 16 is good and they become sufficiently powerful then in Planescape it is by definition good.
They might wonder however, why their perfume factories now border Gehenna and Hades instead of Bytopia and Elysium.

They could just as well simply turn the map of the great wheel on it's head, decide the lower planes are the upper planes now and that Good henceforth is called Carl and Evil will be called Eugene. These are only words
 
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I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
Neonchameleon said:
If a hypothetical faction decides that raising humans in cages to render down for perfume when they hit the age of 16 is good and they become sufficiently powerful then in Planescape it is by definition good. At that point you've destroyed any inherent meaning to the words "good" and "evil".

I wouldn't really disagree. I'd even say that it's kind of the point. The setting pushes the idea of personal belief over external ideas of black-and-white. What belief about the multiverse leads to that action? Why does it make sense to someone to have that belief? What is the underlying thought that you're going to have to challenge?

Neonchameleon said:
Planescape creates a world in which a conspiracy of mapmakers can turn the world into a Mercator Projection. The Great Wheel is there. Yes, you can say that Britain is more like Japan than it is like France - and in some ways you are right. But there's still a lot of geography that matters. The Great Wheel is like the globe in that respect. Either that or you are massively undercutting what was the premise by not having beliefs actually change the cosmology.

I feel like it's pretty clear that the Great Wheel as presented is one version of how one could map out the relationships between the planes. You can't walk from Arborea to Ysgard (both are infinite), so putting them next to each other on a map doesn't imply any physical, spatial relationship. If your characters wanted to travel from Arborea to Ysgard in play, it would be pretty much as hard as traveling from Arborea to The Paraelemental Plane of Ooze. They're not "next to" each other in any physical way.

Projections are representations of an objective thing, but in PS, it's really hard to define the thing you're projecting in any objective way.

Neonchameleon said:
The world is an oblate spheroid. Sure there are multiple map projections. And many more than that when we get into social geography. But the Great Wheel being core privileges a certain one in the same way that physics privileges the oblate spheroid.

The thing I'd note is that, being infinite, no plane can be said to have any particular shape or border. You can say the world is an oblate spheroid because the world has boundaries and borders that give it a shape. We can go into space and measure it and get dimensions and see it from an "outside" perspective. The world is quantifiable, because it's bound. More or less. You move in a certain direction long enough and you will be outside of it.

You can't say the same thing about, say, the Outlands. No matter how long you walk or fly or how many feet you teleport, you cannot move out of that plane. And when you're not on that plane, you can't see it, interact with it, or otherwise know of its traits. So there's no way to get physical information about the dimensions or spatial relationships between the Outlands and any other plane. The Great Wheel is an attempt to describe the bounds of the planes ideologically, but again, there's no true omniscient perspective here. The Wheel is explicitly mentioned in the Campaign Setting as being a map used by Guvners -- used by a group obsessed with cataloging and discovering underlying order. Of COURSE it looks like a harmonious ring of balance. Ask a Sensate to draw you a map of the multiverse and you're going to get a different map ("Here you'll see Sigil is next to Castle Greyhawk because a door from one lead me to the other. And I didn't draw Gehenna, but I've never once had any experience of Gehenna except what that yugoloth told me, and they are liars, so I don't really think there is such a thing."). And neither character in play is "privileged" in any way for their understanding of the shape of things.
 
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Remathilis

Legend
Dear WotC,
If you ever produce a 6th edtion, sell two versions of the core books. The first one should be the 5e PH and MM, with full art and tons of references to old lore. The second should just be pages and pages of stat blocks; no art, no desriptive text, no proper nouns, nothing but pure game rules devoid of fluff or explanation. Call it "developer edition" and sell it to DMs who want absolutely no D&D in their D&D.
 

Imaro

Legend
You're misdescribing what I said, and also what Gygax says.

Earlier I said I didn't have familiarity with AD&D 1e... so all I can go on is what you are posting, so no I wasn't misdescribing anything I was assuming you stated what was relevant.

As quoted by you upthread (post 882) I said that "law and chaos were presented as different means to the ends of good (or different ways of disregarding good, for evil characters)". My statement was incomplete, but the epxansion is obvious - law and chaos are also ways of disregarding good for LN, CN and True Neutral characters.

And although Gygax described law and chaos as means that are independent of good and evil, he didn't describe them as values that are independent of good and evil. A person who is LG, for instance, isn't committed to two distinct value sets - Law, and Goodness. Rather, as described by Gygax, s/he believes that a certain sort of social order is both a necessary means to, and in part a constituent element of, human wellbeing.

Wait how can "means" be independent, they have to ultimately be the "means" to something... You've already stated they can be a means for disregarding good or evil... and what is that good or evil replaced with? A dedication to law or chaos, thus logically they are values that serve as a replacement for good and evil when those values are discarded.

You are the one who described the motives of S&S characters as the pursuit of something that they want! If you now think that that is overly-simplistic, well I guess you can take that up with yourself!

The statement was overly simplistic because I was using it in a broad sense to encompass a multitude of motives in the easiest and quickest way possible... there is nothing that forbids an S&S character from wanting to do good (though it is a rarity in the stories), the point is that whatever alignment they would fall into... it will be motivated by their own desires and wants... but I think you knew what i was getting at.

As to whther I am speaking to the Planescape or the AD&D conception of alignment, I'm talking about the conceptin of evil as set out in the AD&D rulebooks and the 3E ones - of having no regard for the welfare of others, and even being ready to kill or debase them to get what one wants.

So you're not really talking about Planescape, since it's a campaign setting with it's own variations on D&D alignment...

And at least as presented in the Planewalker's Handbook, Planescape seems to conform to the same usage. For instance, p 14 of PWHB refers to the Abyss et al as "the dark planes" and "the Lower Planes". The Abyss is described (on the same page) as "the seat of utimate chaos tainted by the darkest evil". Etc.

Yes and if you'd ever actually read the campaign setting you'd know that it's possible to change those planes if one desired to... so it's a baseline to start your campaign with, nothing more.

That's not in disupte. My point is that they don't try to persuade everyone to label that outcome as "good". They are concerned with changing the world, not changing people's convitions about the world.

If you look at REH's Conan, you will see the same thing: he sets out to be a king, to do what he thinks is good for a king to do, and on that basis to win the respect of his subjects. He doesn't set out to enact a change in moral belief. The target of his action is social reality, not inner convictions!

Well Elric, Corum and the rest of Moorcock's Eternal Champions are quite different from Conan (and that's why I stated I leaned more towards Moorcockian S&S than Howardian S&S), Elric very much tries to change the morality of Melniboneans, of course he fails and totally embraces his people's morality when he ultimately destroys their civilization as retribution. It is Elric's own morality and his insistence on trying to push this on his people that marks him as an outsider and causes much of his tragedy in the (chronologically) earlier stories.

I've always taken this to be understood. It's the rationale for the Blood War, isn't it - a reason why the infinitely large numbers of fiends (especially the demons of the many layers of the Abyss) haven't just conquered the rest of the world.

I always understood it to mean they outnumbered celestials but not all the races in the multiverse put together... but then like I said I could be wrong.
 

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