The Myth of the Necessity of Magic Items

[DragonLancer]

Just a small thing, but can we keep mention of what happens in AoW under a spoiler warning please?

I'm running it at the moment and I'd rather things weren't spoiled as I have at least one player who reads these boards. Thanks.

 

[Choranzanus]

So in order to make your low magic campaign work you, in addition to your houserules, have to avoid using certain types of monsters. I think that was my guess a) in my former post.

Now the last bit we need to clarify is how you avoid non-spellcasters feeling completely ineffectual. Last time we did a low magic campaign with few houserules the spellcasters started to dominate at 9-10th level.

Avoiding certain monsters is not a houserule, and Emirikol's house rules are nothing special or complicated (I have almost the same houserules, by the way).

The spellcasters will dominate the game after 10th level, whether or not you have lots of magic items. After all it is clerics and wizards who make these magic items, so how could it balance the game against them?

 

[Shazman]

What's your point? That because I post 3 house rules, there must be 50 more? It doesn't take a system rewrite to play lower magic, no matter the 'theory.' My house rulebook in fact covers the following topics: 1) ability score generation (we use points) 2) The class rule I posted for lower-magic 3) that we don't use cross-class skills or favored classes (which has nothing to do with lower magic..it's personal preference) 4) that certain spells are bumped (we have a list just to be sure) 5) Action Points from UA/Ebberon (has nothing to do with lower magic) 6) A list of races relevant to the world (also has nothign to do with lower magic)

My DM's rule is that only a "caveman" couldn't just remove DR/magic and tack on hit points so that the game can go on (the game must go on afterall).

That's the beauty of D&D. You can play lower magic-item-dependence and be just as balanced as a super high magic game like FR or LG.

Not hard to figure out at all

jh

Okay, so the big bad guy has more hitpoints instead of DR and the characters have action points. With the save or die effects being thrown around, the action points just won't cut it. The entire party has 10% (maybe) chance of surviving the first wail of the banshee. You have to either a) fundge rolls in favor of the characters b) not use the enemie's most potent abilities c) retool the bad guys to be significantly weaker or d) watch as all of the PC's die in the first round of combat. If I stuck it out through 20 levels of ppractically no magic items and then died because I had no chance of success due to being magically defeicent, I'd be ticked off. Maybe some people would enjoy that , but I wouldn't .

 

[monboesen]

Avoiding certain monsters is not a houserule

Never claimed it was. But it is another measure he have had to take to keep a low magic game working.

(I'm not at all against low/scarce magic games. In fact it is just about all I play. My experience is just not that it is as easy to get working as Emirikol finds)

 

[Emirikol]

Why is it so hard to say "I can run a low magic item game with house rules and hard work that I have to put in because I am changing one of the balance points of the game"?

I can't see anywhere in the PHB or DMG where it says magical items are a requirement for the game and are the balancing factor necessary to run a "normal" game.

Otherwise, I agree with you entirely and you took the words right out of my mouth

jh

 

[Deekin]

I can't see anywhere in the PHB or DMG where it says magical items are a requirement for the game and are the balancing factor necessary to run a "normal" game.

Otherwise, I agree with you entirely and you took the words right out of my mouth

jh

DMG page 135. Under Character Power Levels heading

 

[Emirikol]

Problem solved! Magic addiction really IS sanctioned! Item(s) means two or more right? Two or more of what category?

Anyone care to quote the passage that indicates how a DM must balance carefully..or where it notes that wealth is not just made up of magic items?

Why is it assumed that a DM must give a 7th level character 19,000 gp worth of magic items? No 7th level encounter would assume that you'd have to have magic items totalling 20k right? Is there a minimum listed there?

jh

 

[green slime]

I've probably simply lost the flow of the conversation, but when the topic of the thread is "The myth of the neccessity of magic items" and the OP is initially claiming not to need heavy house rules to make a sparsely equipped party viable at high levels, this post seems odd.

Yes. And its not the only thing here that seems odd.

 

[painandgreed]

What do you think? Are magic items even necessary or are they just crack for the addicted?

Decided to sit down and Check out how a 15th level fighter faired with and without magic agianst similar CR monsters from the Monster Manual.

Without magic, he has a +15 BAB, another +3 to hit/dam from str, +2 to hit/+4 dam from feats. Total +20 to hit and +7 damage. AC for full plate, +1 dex, dodge feat used against single monster and heavy sheild is 22.

He should have 59k worth of magic tiems. Spread equally between armor, shield, melee weapon, and ranged weapon we get +3 to all with 5k left over. 2k goes to Amulet of natural armor +1 and the rest goes towards mundane cost of equipment (plus any potions he'd need to assualt hundreds of warrior 1's guarding Troy). That is +3 to to hit/dam and +7 AC from magic.

Our two CR 15 monsters from the monster manual are an adult red dragon* (AC 29, +31 to hit) and the Maruut Inevitable ( AC 34, +22 attack).

Both monsters hit on all but a 1 against the unmagiced fighter, and the fighter can hit the dragon 55% of the time and the Marut 30% of the time. With magic the dragon still hits on all but a 1 and the Marut hits less than 50% of the time. Magic adds another +15% to hit and some more damage. The biggest loss seems the loss of AC.

As others pointed out, saves are an issue. Both monsters have attacks with saves. I don't think that either are particularly out of complete hope by the fighter without magic. We'll say he has something to help with saves rather than his +3 ranged weapon.

Magic does seem to give the fighter a critical edge against a similar CR, probably enough to alter the CR appropriatly some. It also seems that it depends greatly on how the fighter is equiped. Is he equiped for defence and attack, for saves, or how about transportation? While there is probably magic equipment to help with any situation, I doubt a high level figher can be equiped to deal with all situations.

*We shall ingore DR/magic as would probably be required by the idea of a low magic campain. Most likely, masterwork weapons would be allowed to hit DR/magic.

 

[monboesen]

He should have 59k worth of magic tiems

Nope. That is what an npc fighter should have. The PC fighter should have a whopping 200k of magic items.

Standard items would likely be somthing like Cloak of resistance +5, Armor +4 and Animated Shield +2, Holy weapon +3, Boots of striding, Belt of giant strength +4, Amulet of health +4, Ring of protection +3

That leaves 40k for fun.

Those items grant +5 to hit and +6 to damage (+2d6 vs. evil), +11 AC, +7 fort, +5 refl&will, +30 HP.