The Myth of the Necessity of Magic Items

[painandgreed]

Nope. That is what an npc fighter should have. The PC fighter should have a whopping 200k og magic items.

Ah, found that now. Thought 59k was too low.

However I do consider different standards for equally leveled PCs and NPCs bad game design.

 

[Remathilis]

Ah, found that now. Thought 59k was too low.

However I do consider different standards for equally leveled PCs and NPCs bad game design.

That is because the game assumes an NPC has the potential to be killed and have its stuff taken

If a PC kills an NPC of the same level and takes all of his stuff, he gets gear equal to 1/3 or 1/4 of what a PC should have (200k + 59k). If the NPC had the same amount of gear as the PC, he effectively DOUBLES his gear. (200k + 200k).

So the balance is in the assumption that an NPC's gear might/will fall into the hands of a PC. Therefore, he has less to avoid double and tripling the PCs gear in a few encounters...

 

[JohnSnow]

So the NPC needs gear to be a credible threat, but if you give him too much gear, he's a toy store?

And people wonder why I object to magic item proliferation in D&D.

*goes scuttling back over to Iron Heroes.*

 

[Bardsandsages]

I think perhaps part of the original point is that people assume you must have X amount of magical gear in order to be effective. This may have been true with earlier editions, but not as much as you might think with 3.5. Many of the DR after all, are now ignored not by +X weapons, but unique materials (Silver, cold iron, etc). And in reality, from a real world standpoint it is easier to assume a blacksmith would make and sell cold iron weapons than that a wizard would spend his hard earned XP to make enchanted weapons for the typical adventurer.

Many magical items can be easily replaced by mundane ones with only a bit of imagination. Most magical potions can simply be converted to "homeopathic remedies." Who needs a cure poison potion when you have castor oil? Protection from electricity needed? How about some rubber-soled boots to ground you? It's entirely possible for a DM, if he or she really wanted to, to find mundane replacements for magical gear and simply adjust the entire game accordingly.

Of course, whether you should is dependent on the feel of the game. I don't think I could effectively run a FR game with magic-lite rules. It destroys the point of the setting. But I could run a generic medieval fantasy style game with little or no magical items just fine.

 

[painandgreed]

That is because the game assumes an NPC has the potential to be killed and have its stuff taken

And that these things have to be hand waved due to such metagame reasons rather than follow some sort of ingame consistancy, I find to be bad design or at least following different design criteria that I want in my D&D. So now you've got 15th levels and 15th level Elites wihtout every designating them as such. What happens if you end up with two PC groups in a PvP session? Proper CR determination? XP? Nevermind that this happens with monsters also as dragons tend to be elite types because they were designed to be extra hard for their CR. What's the point of a CR system if it doesn't work? Should have just stuck with static XP like 1/2E.

 

[shmoo2]

Magic items aren't necessary- with many changes

I'm in the middle of running the SCAP with a lower level of magic items. The PCS just hit 14th level and have 40-50k in magic gear.

In order for this to work and still use the published adventures I've had to make many adjustments to make sure the characters have the appropriate power level. I've given extra feats, extra stat boosts, action points, and a 'parry' bonus to AC. In addition, the classed NPCs tend to be a little weaker since they possess fewer magic items themselves.

I don't think it'd be possible to use a Paizo AP with low PC wealth without many changes like this, either to the PC's power or to the number/power of the opposition.

 

[Gundark]

Well, this one is a tough one for me. I do think that with some creatures magic items are needed, even with a little tweakin they're neccesary. I'm planning on running an Iron Heroes game next, I'm looking forward to not having to worry about dealing with magic items on the whole. Hoever I'm concerned about losing out on the "finding cool stuff" fun.

I really don't like the magic level in current 3.X rules. Our group is at the level whree +1 swords are useless to them and get ground into gold. However I not to sure about low magic rules either. I would like a middle of the road ruleset, one where magic items are there to be found but not where every orc, goblin, or whatnot is packing a magic weapon/item. IMHO magic items are too easily found in the current 3.x ruleset

 

[Emirikol]

I really don't like the magic level in current 3.X rules. Our group is at the level whree +1 swords are useless to them and get ground into gold. However I not to sure about low magic rules either. I would like a middle of the road ruleset,

That's what it's "supposed" to be. Everyone just assumes that because the speed limit is 85 that you need to drive 89... Not true DMG page 135 clears that up pretty well if anyone would care to reprint the text

jh

 

[Emirikol]

*goes scuttling back over to Iron Heroes.*

I'm certainly not telling anyone how to play their game, but there is a "maximum" and not a "minimum" listed in the DMG. Having a maximum doesn't mean that you must take the maximum dose.

This thread has been interesting because people are essentially telling lower-magic gamers that they're not allowed to play a low magic game using the D&D rules because they seem to believe that you must be maxed out with MI's to play D&D "correctly" or "their way".

I started this thread to point out that maybe the proliferation of magic item addiction has gone a little overboard...and the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem...

I certainly have a problem with people telling everyone that you can't play D&D in a lower magic environment. If you guys want to play it maxed out, go ahead, but please don't attack us because we have found that you CAN play the game with lower amounts.

jh

 

[jmucchiello]

I certainly have a problem with people telling everyone that you can't play D&D in a lower magic environment. If you guys want to play it maxed out, go ahead, but please don't attack us because we have found that you CAN play the game with lower amounts.

We are overjoyed that you have found a style of play you enjoy. What bugs us is that you won't admit that it takes effort to remove the built in assumptions from the game. It is not a simple few steps that you take. It is work. You may not consider it "hard" work. But some folks do. I asked you to list all the steps you take to modify monsters. I think if you actually wrote out everything that you do, you would find the list longer than you thought.

El Ravager redoes the monster's AC, hit bonuses and hit points based on a set of formulas. While the math involved is simple, doing it for all monsters is time consuming, a.k.a. work.