The need for social skills in D&D

[Raven Crowking]

No. Everyone has understood it at some level.

Then why wouldn't you want player skill to be as involved (not more involved) in social interaction than in combat?

 

[billd91]

Then why wouldn't you want player skill to be as involved (not more involved) in social interaction than in combat?

But it is. As I said, the player picks the approach, the topic, the goal and all of that can be affected by the player's skill. A good approach, topic, goal, and execution can all generate circumstance bonuses. That's how a good player can do better than one who isn't as skilled. But even the player who has trouble with some of those aspects (and we're talking particularly about the execution factor) can still play a silver-tongued PC and meet with success if that's how he wants to build the PC thanks to the social skill structure.

It's also where a player with an under-charismatic PC can have the best laid plans and still be brought down by his own character's bumbling.

Player skill affects both combat tactical play and social interaction, but with the rules for both combat and social skills, a player who isn't as skilled but has the right sort of character build can still be competent and have the kind of PC they want to have.

 

[iwatt]

It's the responsibility of the player to chose which of those social tactics they roll with, because the type of tactic chosen will have reprecussions on the future plots. If you're the type of player who can't handle that... if you're going to hesitate for minutes at a time going, 'I don't know, I don't know, how should I do this"... please do not play a social character. (Can you tell I have bitter experience here?)

Once the tactics are chosen, by all means roll the dice.

That's my take on it.

This I can agree with wholeheartedly. Personally I'd prefer for the player to speak in character, but I by no means require it. But they have to say what they're doing. Just saying, "I bluff the guard to get past" is not using the roleplaying skills. It's a copout.

Edited for atrocious spelling

 

[Jedi_Solo]

Just to put in my 2cp here, I am one for rolling with modifiers.

I am currently playing a Bard with a charisma score that is through the roof. I'm not sure anyone in real life has an equivalent score this high (he has a 26 CHA before any equipment modifiers or spells). I am certainly not THAT good at lying or diplomacy.

On good days I can come up with a cool speech if I have a couple of minutes.

On bad days all I can do is "um..." for a second or two and then come up with the basic idea of how I want to bluff/intimidate/use diplomacy.

My DM then has me roll, and has given me a bonus if I came up with a really cool speech. If I then roll low I can add something that can help blow the entire conversation. My bard's scores are so high I don't think he'd ever ask a guard where the bathroom is... but he may forget a name that he should know or may blank for a moment himself (everyone has bad days).

There is more than enough room to have it both ways. Roleplay before the roll and you may get a bonus if you are having a good day. If the dice don't like you then you can come up with something funny to explain why the character screwed up so badly.

Dice rolling can be so much more than "you have successfully bluffed the guard" and still have the dice hit the table.

 

[Raven Crowking]

But it is. As I said, the player picks the approach, the topic, the goal and all of that can be affected by the player's skill. A good approach, topic, goal, and execution can all generate circumstance bonuses.

How does the player pick the approach? Do you mean that he chooses what skill to use?

To my mind, this is similar to picking your opponent in a combat.​

How does the player pick the topic? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

I actually assume that the goal is, like the goals in combat encounters, something that is circumstantial and therefore not completely under the players' jurisdiction.

 

[Jedi_Solo]

How does the player pick the approach? Do you mean that he chooses what skill to use?

[snip]

How does the player pick the topic? I'm not exactly sure what you mean by that.

My impression (which may be incorrect - and correct me if I'm wrong, billd91) was that billd91 was saying the player determines that they will Bluff the guard by saying the PC is visiting royalty or that the player says the PC will Intimidate the captive by smashing a chair against the wall.

Then once the DM knows what the PC will be attempting (a bluff check) and how they will be attempting it (visiting royalty) the dice hit the table and determine the outcome.

 

[billd91]

My impression (which may be incorrect - and correct me if I'm wrong, billd91) was that billd91 was saying the player determines that they will Bluff the guard by saying the PC is visiting royalty or that the player says the PC will Intimidate the captive by smashing a chair against the wall.

Then once the DM knows what the PC will be attempting (a bluff check) and how they will be attempting it (visiting royalty) the dice hit the table and determine the outcome.

You're on the right track.

Approach: how do you approach the NPC you're going to interact with. Friendly? Official? Openly? Hautily? Beseechingly? Some approaches are more conducive to some situations than others.

Topic: The basic gist of your argument, bluff, or question. Bluff already incorporates some elements of this with respect to the risk involved in and credibility of the bluff. But it also applies to diplomacy and other things too. Maybe dependant on the goal.

Goal: Is the goal reasonable, or outlandish. Asking for a small favor, a great boon? Suggesting something the NPC is already likely to go along with? Just want to get past him without a lot of hassle?

Putting it all together:
Suppose you want to get a guard away from his post to a space normally under observation can be sneaked through by other PCs (goal).
PC goes up to the guard as a fellow military man who has "been there, done that" and is sympathetic (approach).
PC remarks about how hot the sun is and offers the guard a drink in the shade over here, just for a few minutes (topic)

Alternatively, the PC could approach as a haughty merchant who demands the guard's assistance with a small matter just over here. Or maybe as a victim of a cutpurse calling out for help against a fleeing urchin.

If the player picks an approach that is promising, has a goal reasonably easy to reach, and the topic of conversation works from that approach and toward that goal pretty well, then expect a good circumstance bonus. Make choices that aren't so good, there may even be penalties.

 

[Wolfwood2]

If the player picks an approach that is promising, has a goal reasonably easy to reach, and the topic of conversation works from that approach and toward that goal pretty well, then expect a good circumstance bonus. Make choices that aren't so good, there may even be penalties.

But it's not even about the circumstance bonuses and penalties, which are usually pretty minor. (Like +2/-2.)

It's about the fact that how you interact with NPCs may well have effects down the road in the campaign. The GM is doing to play the NPCs as having memories, and they will react based on the specific manner in which you social-fued them before.

If you intimidate an NPC by threatening him with your war dog, he might not seek to retaliate as long as the dog is around.

If you Diplomacy your way past a guard by making friends with him, he may show up and ask you to return the favor a few days later. If you diplomacy him by getting him to accept a bribe, he'll expect the same bribe next time around.

And Bluffing... well obviously how an NPC will react, both in the immediate and in the future, will depend on exactly what sort of lie or con you played on him.

Dice checks will tell you the immediate results of doing something, but there's still going to be a lot of requirement for DM intrepretation on what those results mean, based on the personality of the NPC involved.

 

[Raven Crowking]

billd91, I'm perfectly happy with what you suggest. I don't think you need to say, word-for-word, what the character says to have input. Even when the player makes the speech, I assume that the speech has gone through a character-filter (i.e., the character will pick better/worse words based on his die roll). What the player does is tell us what the character intends to do and what the dice do is tell us how well the character carries out those intentions.

IMHO, at least.

Wolfwood2, I agree with you perfectly.

 

[RFisher]

Sometimes the same words spoken by one person will elicit eye rolling that, when spoken by someone else, garner nods.

That's the role of Charisma/skills/rolls. The mechanics are less about choosing the right words & more about how those words are received.

For me.