The new Battlerager - Clear as mud

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
I just broke my battleraging dwarf out of retirement due to my paladin being in chains....and I am trying to wrap my head around the new battlerager rules, which are as complicated as the old ones.

Pertinent facts:
I have a CON modifier of +4
I have the Dwarven Stoneblood feat and am 11th level

Are all these scenarios correct?

1. If I hit someone with an invigorating keyword attack I get 8thp which stack with whatever thps I already have.

2. If I hit someone with a non-invigorating keyword attack I get 4thp which do not stack.

3. If I miss everyone with an invigorating keyword attack I get 4thp which do stack.

4. If I miss with a non-invigorating keyword attack I get bupkis.

Thanks in advance
DS
 

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1. is wrong

You get extra hp equal to your constituton modifier if you hit and if the power gives you thp (like every invigorating power if you have endurance skilled) those stack.

3. also wrong

they don´t stack.
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
1. You would get 12 thp. 4 from the invigorating keyword, 4 from the feat and 4 from the battlerager class features. This does not stack with existing thp (that was the original build). Instead, you get to add the battlerager thp to any thp you would normally get from a power (including invigorating)

2. 4 thp is correct (unless of course, you get thp for that power already)

3. 4 thp is correct as well, although again, it will not stack.

4. Missing with a non-invigorating power does not interact with the battlerager class feature, so 0 thp (unless a different feat or power says otherwise of course).
 


Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
Shouldn't it be +8? +4 CON and +4 from feat? The feat description doesn't mention anything about being hit, but just about using invigorating power.

It says to increase the number of thp you get for using invigorating powers by +4. The text for invigorating powers says you get +CON thp whenever you hit with the power, not just for using the power. Thus you should get +CON+4 thp whenever you hit.

A regular fighter would get nothing on a miss with an invigorating power, but a battlerager gets +CON as a consolation prize.

I am not sure how I missed out on the 12thp with an invigorating hit...that's some bad math on my part. I wish the power cards would append things like this on their statlines.

DS
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
So to review all the data....

NOTHING STACKS

Hit-Invigorating=12thp
Hit-Regular=4thp
Miss-Invigorating=4thp
Miss-Regular=Nothing

I think I have a handle on it now. It will actually be easier to keep track of than the old thp bank I used to have running....once I write this on the power cards to keep it all straight in the heat of battle.

DS
 

So to review all the data....

NOTHING STACKS

Hit-Invigorating=12thp
Hit-Regular=4thp
Miss-Invigorating=4thp
Miss-Regular=Nothing

I think I have a handle on it now. It will actually be easier to keep track of than the old thp bank I used to have running....once I write this on the power cards to keep it all straight in the heat of battle.

DS

Sounds correct. It is easier to use the new battlerager and also they are much more encouraged in the new version to be offensive vs the old version that basically just wanted to be mobbed by as many melee opponents as possible. It also encourages you to be effective at OAs and CC attacks more since they represent another potential source of thp. Relatively speaking it also seems like invigorating powers are more worthwhile, but I haven't really played with the new version and worked all that out. Mostly they just no longer totally nerf all melee monsters.
 

Blackbrrd

First Post
I have a Battlevigor Fighter in the party I DM and he is very solid. Extremely solid defense and quite nice offensively. The character has Crushing surge to use when he needs temp hp and uses Brash Strike if he wants to drop something.

Compared to the other defenders he feels much more solid. I really love the ability to switch to a striker-ish power (Brash Strike) when the situation calls for it. Often used to finish off mobs and when high on temp hp.
 

Bayuer

First Post
It says to increase the number of thp you get for using invigorating powers by +4. The text for invigorating powers says you get +CON thp whenever you hit with the power, not just for using the power. Thus you should get +CON+4 thp whenever you hit.

A regular fighter would get nothing on a miss with an invigorating power, but a battlerager gets +CON as a consolation prize.

I am not sure how I missed out on the 12thp with an invigorating hit...that's some bad math on my part. I wish the power cards would append things like this on their statlines.

DS

It also says that: "If you use an invigorating fighter attack power and miss every target with it, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier."

Then the feat says: "You gain a +2 feat bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power. The bonus increases to 4 at 11th level and 6 at 21st level."

I don't see here any requiment that says "when you hit", but only when you use. So when you miss you add feat bonus too.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
It also says that: "If you use an invigorating fighter attack power and miss every target with it, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Constitution modifier."

Then the feat says: "You gain a +2 feat bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power. The bonus increases to 4 at 11th level and 6 at 21st level."

I don't see here any requiment that says "when you hit", but only when you use. So when you miss you add feat bonus too.

Invigorating
If you are trained in Endurance, you gain temporary
hit points equal to your Constitution modifier when
you hit with a power that has the invigorating keyword...

You have to hit to gain THPs from invigorating powers. So you can't gain bonus THP unless you hit to get the regular THPs.
 

DNH

First Post
I have a couple of thoughts on this.

1 - I wasn't aware that the thp gain from the Battlerager Vigour feature stacks with those gained from the Invigorating keyword. I had assumed that they were both saying the same thing, so I have only been applying it the once. I am still not convinced this is correct (the doubling up, I mean) but I am prepared to accept it due to the "plus any thp normally granted by the power" codicil which sort of covers it. Feel free to try and convince me.

2 - I am siding with Bayuer on the Dwarf Stoneblood issue. The wording is clear: use, not hit. So I am applying the feat bonus to Invigorating misses also.

So for my own Fighter (Level 4, Dwarf, Con mod +4, Battlerager Vigour, Dwarf Stoneblood, trained in Endurance), I have the following:

Hit with Invigorating = +10 temp hp
Hit with Regular = +4 temp hp
Miss with Invigorating = +6 temp hp
Miss with Regular = +0 temp hp

Any thoughts?
 


WalterKovacs

First Post
I have a couple of thoughts on this.

1 - I wasn't aware that the thp gain from the Battlerager Vigour feature stacks with those gained from the Invigorating keyword. I had assumed that they were both saying the same thing, so I have only been applying it the once. I am still not convinced this is correct (the doubling up, I mean) but I am prepared to accept it due to the "plus any thp normally granted by the power" codicil which sort of covers it. Feel free to try and convince me.

2 - I am siding with Bayuer on the Dwarf Stoneblood issue. The wording is clear: use, not hit. So I am applying the feat bonus to Invigorating misses also.

So for my own Fighter (Level 4, Dwarf, Con mod +4, Battlerager Vigour, Dwarf Stoneblood, trained in Endurance), I have the following:

Hit with Invigorating = +10 temp hp
Hit with Regular = +4 temp hp
Miss with Invigorating = +6 temp hp
Miss with Regular = +0 temp hp

Any thoughts?

The character is at level 11, so the feat bonus is +4 instead of +2 (making your 10 become a 12, and your 6 become an 8).

As for missing with an invigorating power, this is my interpretation:

An invigorating power gives you thp on a hit.

The battlerager class feature provides temporary hit points that trigger off missing with an invigorating power.

The feat gives bonus to the number of thp "you gain from using an invigorating power". The wording implies that the thp come from the power itself, not just from a class feature triggered by using the power. Were it to work in either situation, it would perhaps have been worded as "when" using an invigorating power.
 

DNH

First Post
The character is at level 11, so the feat bonus is +4 instead of +2 (making your 10 become a 12, and your 6 become an 8).

Agreed, but I was referring to my own Level 4 character, like I said.

As for missing with an invigorating power, this is my interpretation:

An invigorating power gives you thp on a hit.

The battlerager class feature provides temporary hit points that trigger off missing with an invigorating power.

The feat gives bonus to the number of thp "you gain from using an invigorating power". The wording implies that the thp come from the power itself, not just from a class feature triggered by using the power. Were it to work in either situation, it would perhaps have been worded as "when" using an invigorating power.

I really don't understand what you're getting at here. You take the power's attack line (eg Crushing Surge = Str vs AC) to make the attack. That means you are using the power. Hit or miss, you use the power. Were it an Encounter or a Daily power, you would cross it off your list. Given that, Dwarf Stoneblood ("bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power") gives you the extra thp even on a miss.
 

WalterKovacs

First Post
I really don't understand what you're getting at here. You take the power's attack line (eg Crushing Surge = Str vs AC) to make the attack. That means you are using the power. Hit or miss, you use the power. Were it an Encounter or a Daily power, you would cross it off your list. Given that, Dwarf Stoneblood ("bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power") gives you the extra thp even on a miss.

You are using an invigorating power.

However the question is "why are you gaining temporary hit points"?

If you hit with the power, you gain temporary hit points because of the invigorating keyword (the battlerager vigor class features adds to that number, as does the feat).

However, if you miss you do not gain any thp because of the invigorating keyword, instead you gain it because of the battlerager vigor class feature.

The difference is that, in the first case, the invigorating power is the direct source of the thp. In the second case, the class feature is the source, the invigorating keyword is only the trigger.

It is true that the feat does not specify on a hit. However, it is possible for an invigorating power to give out thp on a miss (any martial encounter attack power can become invigorating through a feat). I'm not sure if there is such a power yet, but there is a potential for one, and for that reason, leaving things open ended for the wording of the feat allows those powers to benefit from the bonus.

It does specify that it is for the thp that come from using the power with the invigorating keyword, and the battlerager class feature doesn't alter powers with the invigorating keyword to give out thp on a miss, but instead the thp come from the class feature.
 

eamon

Explorer
I really don't understand what you're getting at here. You take the power's attack line (eg Crushing Surge = Str vs AC) to make the attack. That means you are using the power. Hit or miss, you use the power. Were it an Encounter or a Daily power, you would cross it off your list. Given that, Dwarf Stoneblood ("bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power") gives you the extra thp even on a miss.

This is my interpretation as well. Additionally, it's not a particularly problematic interpretation, balance-wise: you're still better off actually hitting, and this consolation prize isn't going to dramatically affect that.
 

keterys

First Post
There is a notable difference between getting 8 temp on a miss and getting 4 temp on a miss... might be worth poking WotC on this one for clarification.
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
I can see how this could be interpreted both ways....

A. Cut and pasting from the July 2009 update for Dwarven Stoneblood...
"You gain a +2 feat bonus to the number of
temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating
power. The bonus increases to 4 at 11th level
and 6 at 21st level."

B. Cut and pasting from the July 2009 update for Battlerager Vigor
"If you use an invigorating fighter attack power
and miss every target with it, you gain temporary hit
points equal to your Constitution modifier."

Following the list of steps in order...

1. Player uses an invigorating power.
2. Player misses his target
3. Battlerager Vigor kicks in and grants the player 4thp BECAUSE HE USED AN INVIGORATING POWER.
4. Dwarven Stoneblood adds +4thp because the player GAINED THP BECAUSE HE USED AN INVIGORATING POWER.

The fundamental difference in the two views is the thought that Dwarven Stoneblood only augments what the Invigorating keyword does versus the thought that any method at all of gaining thp from an invigorating power would qualify you for the extra 4thp (Battlerager Vigor feature, a theoretical weapon that gives you 1thp everytime you miss, or even a character power that does the same thing).

It really is, as my initial title claims, clear as mud.

DS
 

Sabathius42

Bree-Yark
Interestingly enough, I played with this new method last night and I found that against one or two opponents at a time, the revised way of getting THP actually ended up with me having more shielding than the old way. Using invigorating powers has become MUCH more attractive than before.

Totally unrelated to this topic...we were down to the last bad guy in the battle (who was a half-orc greataxe BBEG) and he was taking his last swipe before he went down. The GM exclaimed in glee as he rolled a crit (I think it was a crit as he announced 50something damage). I popped out my last-ditch-evasion power that I have never used previously, as I save it for just these occasions.

It was like deflating a balloon. I felt guilty I took away the GMs fun!

DS
 


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