The New Design Philosophy?

monboesen said:
This is simply good dm'ing and has nothing to do with the monster or it's CR. I don't think anyone here has suggested you shouldn't use such tactics, all we are saying is that the former OM CR is to high, because it was forced to flee due to it's inability to actually challenge the characters in combat (which is what CR is a measure of).
Yes, you've made that point several times now - and you have my reply to it above. Shall we move on now?
monboesen said:
I fail to see how changing a few powers and making it a better meleer (I actually think Mearl underestimated the revised OM CR) changes the way you run it. It can still do ecxactly what you described and if played like an intelligent (and maybe a bit cowardly foe) it would be it's natural way of operating.
Really? Is that what Mike Mearls did?

Lessee...
Monster Makeover: The Ogre Mage said:
Given its link to ogres, it would serve well as a leader for those creatures.
The original ogre mage was not a "leader for ogres" - funny, there's no mention of that in the 1e AD&D Monster Manual, in either the entries for ogres or ogre magi. The only apparent connection between the two is that ogre magi speak their own language and that of ogres.

It's already been mentioned several times in one or the other thread that ogre magi are a representative example of oni, before a more detailed treatment was introduced to the game. "Boss Ogre" had nothing to do with the ogre mage.
Monster Makeover: The Ogre Mage said:
Now comes the ogre mage's offensive spell-like abilities. Sleep still has a HD limit, making it a poor choice against many parties. Charm person just clutters the list. The ogre mage rules by intimidation, not by magic.
The ogre mage's spell-like abilities aren't about offense at all - they are about guile and manipulation, about luring the unwitting or the careless to their doom. It has one truly offensive spell-like ability with which to effect a fair chunk of damage in a pinch - that's it.
Monster Makeover: The Ogre Mage said:
The ogre mage now has a clear place in the game. It leads ogres and other big, tough creatures, both as a mastermind and as a war leader in combat. Its abilities work best when it has allies around, and it is a shifty, difficulty to pin down target.
The ogre mage had a niche in the game - as a mid-level mastermind with a suite of cohesive abilities ideal for stealth, subtlety and surprise. It's too bad that Mike Mearls never got that - a monster makeover to restore the ogre mage's abilities nerfed by the edition change might've been really cool. Instead he strips away the abilities that made the ogre mage what it was and replaced them with more combat stuff, leaving us with a creature that is nothing like its forebears.
monboesen said:
What I don't understand is where you think all these allies and minions of the OM come from. The monster has (or had) no social skills at all, a single use of charm person and the ability to change shape (but very little abiity to impersonate anyone).
Unfortunately the ogre mage conversion to 3e was slipshod, its abilities watered down along with the magic system - I understand why you have the impression you do. As I said, making the 3e ogre mage more like its 1e forebear and its original oni brethren would have been a much better use of Mike Mearls' time.
monboesen said:
Let's assume for a second that it somehow had the ability to repeatedly gain minions and use the to weaken the party. Would that change the CR. Yes for each ENCOUNTER...
I've covered this ground as far as I care to upthread, monboesen - I'll stand by my earlier comments.
 
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ThirdWizard said:
I don't think I've seen a group actually fight a rust monster in a decade. They just run away in terror.
As the fighter jumps into the arms of a very confused wizard. Oh how I loved those old original (1st edition) AD&D edition illustrations.
 

Melan said:
Interesting. This has been on my mind for a looong time - that for the sake of balance, the game designers at Wizards are sacrificing imagination and the whimsical attitude that once permeated the game. I call it slotted game design: the designers aim to mold gameplay into a highly standardised experience, where you encounter a given problem (the „slot”) and respond to it with an appropriate strategy (the „keycard”). This does not take into account the myriad ways a group of adventurers may respond to this same situation – it is a standard problem with a standard solution. The problems started when the Wizards designers, listening to the complaints of a few „fans”, identified unorthodox responses as a problem. Their solution was highly destructive to the game: removing „dangerous” free choice from the hands of both the player and the DM. It used to be, for example, that you would use the command spell to give your opponents a simple order and they would fulfil it to the best of their ability. In 3.5, this was replaced with a set of five commands you can give the same opponents. In essence, all other choices have been stripped from the participants! To avoid a nitpicky debate, here is the text of the spell from the 3.0 and the 3.5 SRD:

3.0


3.5


Notice the wording - it is very specific but also very restrictive. It doesn’t allow for an interpretation. Five commands it is. What does this mean in practice? The change to the command spell punishes good players. Those who would invent new uses for a spell and use it effectively are prevented from doing so. The worst players - who would never know how to use this spell - are rewarded by spelled-out options. This is slotted game design in action and the outcome is increasing standardisation.

It is ironic that the same thing Gary Gygax was demonised for in the early 1980s is today held up by message board participants as the epitome of good design; even as infallible dogma. Gary could never have dreamed of succeeding in his attempt to make AD&D campaigns conform to a strict standard - and definitely not succeeding to this extent.

This begs the question: why does the Wizards of the Coast R&D team strive for so strict a balance and why does it intend to strip away out-of-box options from you? I call this phenomenon the tyranny of fun. A ludicrous name for a ludicrous concept, but there you have it. The WotC designers are not bad people. I am sure, for example, that the folks working there don’t hate the game or anything, maybe they don’t even kick puppies on their way home. Maybe they help old ladies across the street. They want you to have fun. Good, yes? Yes? No. The idea went wrong long ago and it shows no signs of getting better. When dealing with game philosophy, Wizards R&D doesn’t concentrate on thinking up stuff that makes playing fun anymore. That’s 1970s TSR thinking. Moreover, fun is inherently subjective and hard to quantify - all we can have is meaningless truisms like „the game is about killing critters and taking their stuff”, „getting loot and powering up”, „playing my character” or „sitting around and eating chips”. That’s not very helpful - it is all true, of course, but it doesn’t really tell you what to do to emphasise this in the game. So instead, they try to removethings from the game which are not fun. What isn’t fun? The things the fans complain about. But who complains? In short, the kind of people older rulebooks (and pardon my edition snobbery, but that’s just how I see it) warned us about. People whose characters got their swords destroyed by a rust monster and who threw a hissy fit over it. People whose characters died to a hold person spell and who wrote angry letters to Dragon magazine. People who didn’t have fun, whose entertainment was destroyed by this monster or that spell. Meet WotC’s focus groups, meet the people who are the target audience for future releases. The people 4e will be designed to accommodate.

Oh, I don’t have high hopes that these changes can be or will ever be „stopped”. ENWorld is ample proof of that. There comes a change like destroying the creative concept of the rust monster, and there is a chorus of approving posts praising this decision as if it was the second coming of Our Lord Sliced Bread. Because, after all, D&D before „it was evolved” was a horribly designed, bad, bad game people didn’t have fun with and which didn’t sell, right? Right? According to WotC R&D (heh, R&D... I wonder if EGG ever had an „R&D” department), people who didn’t like D&D before are the people D&D should be designed for in the future, because that’s smart business. I am not making this up either.

There is, of course, the inevitable counter-reaction from reactionaries who don’t appreciate the changes and dare to suggest that hey, it was good the way it used to be, and there is no overwhelming need to „re-design it to be proper at last”. These rose-coloured glass-wearing fools even suggest that the design shouldn’t be used. Naive thinking. In fact, they will accomplish very little. The debate will flow back and forth for a while, and in the end, the sides will agree to meet halfway. And gee, you just conceded your position, dice-boy. You were suckered into accepting that gee, maybe they are right. Maybe it really was bad design and it were your pleasant experiences that were false.

The final response is always going to be to remove any edge, any colour, to remove randomness and introduce standardised fair play into the game which started out as highly arbitrary and whimsical - in short, fantastic and open to creative interpretation.

This response is the symptom of a design culture which would never be capable of designing a game like Dungeons &Dragons.

And that is a pity.

vb.jpg


--Gabor „I am redesigning my dire weasel right now if you know what I mean, and I think you do” Lux


QFT
 

Just a quick moderately reminder that even if you disagree with someones position, you must remember to be polite to one another, OK?

If by some chance you think that somebody else is flogging a horse which you cut up and buried a couple of pages ago, don't feel that it is important that you have the final word. Other people reading the thread will read all the arguments and come to their own conclusions.

Thanks!
 


The Shaman said:
Lessee...The original ogre mage was not a "leader for ogres" - funny, there's no mention of that in the 1e AD&D Monster Manual, in either the entries for ogres or ogre magi. The only apparent connection between the two is that ogre magi speak their own language and that of ogres.

It's already been mentioned several times in one or the other thread that ogre magi are a representative example of oni, before a more detailed treatment was introduced to the game. "Boss Ogre" had nothing to do with the ogre mage.


I read over my 1e MM to get a better idea of the OM in earlier editions. It mentions that the OM will most likely be found in a cave or other remote abandoned area with some slaves and a few other Ogres. So I think the original was somewhat intended to be a leader, if only for a smaller band of Ogres.

It says Japanese Ogre, "far more powerfull then it's western cousins!" So maybe it was inspired when designed by Oni, but it wasn't listed as an example of an Oni... And at this point, there are rules for Oni already in the game, so the OM doesn't really need to fill this roll...

As for it's manipulative abilities... I still never really saw it as this crazy mastermind people say... The real thing I see it doing, is slipping into a town unnoticed with it's polymorph then stealing a few women and children to keep as slaves, charming them so they don't run away, and other more... hedonistic... reasons.

Then the PCs show up, get into a brawl with its lesser ogre thugs, and to get away it blows it's cone of cold wad and gasses off somewhere.

So perhaps the new remake lost that bit of flavor? But it doesn't make the new monster bad, and it doesn't spell the "end of D&D!!!" as some people seem to want it to... Especially since Mr Mearls then went on to suggest a new charm type ability which would give it that former charming slaver ability AND the ability to put up a fight if it had to! (remember the thing wasn't playtested save for ONCE!)
 

Rodrigo Istalindir said:
A defining characteristic of the game (up until 3.5) had always been 'high level characters are gods among men, but there is still that possibility of getting your ass handed to you by certain things'. 'Certain things' could be a mage with 'disintegrate', a mindflayer that sucks your brain, etc.

In 1.x or 3.x, a 20th level butterknife wielding fighter still going to mow through the mooks. The question is, in the future will he have *anything* to fear?

Considering that 3e combat is by FAR more lethal than previous editions, I'd say yes, there is lots for that 20th level character to worry about.

Who needs save or die effects when a creature of a given CR is capable of killing PC's in a single round from straight up melee damage?

I do agree with TheShaman. It was the mooks that made that encounter memorable. However, that is my entire point. The Ogre Mage didn't make that encounter memorable. Any creature capable of similar things - doppleganger, demon, vampire come to mind - would have served AND been a heck of a lot better fight to boot.

It's not like the game is lacking in creature that can shape change and charm. The OM was just another one with a weak chin and a BFG. Well, now he's got a slightly smaller gun, but a heck of a lot more chin.
 

ThirdWizard said:
I don't think I've seen a group actually fight a rust monster in a decade. They just run away in terror.

Fought one a few months ago. Our thief beat it to death with a fishbat (which he had actually bought earlier that game to go fishing with) as everybody else ran away.
 

I'll add my voice to those who agree with Melan.
I won't quote his whole post, but one sentence that struck me in particular?

The idea went wrong long ago and it shows no signs of getting better. When dealing with game philosophy, Wizards R&D doesn’t concentrate on thinking up stuff that makes playing fun anymore.

Q.F.T.
The amount of books I buy has been rapidly decreasing of late, and most of the books I do buy are setting-specific (Midnight, some Eberron), or fluff-centric, as that's what I tend to need in my campaign.

And, as time passes, I find myself become more controlling as a DM in terms of the books and supplements I allow in my games. The prevailing attitude that I see more and more is "Everything but the Kitchen Sink", where, due to the sheer volume of material out there, players have access to umpteen books and supplements to choose from, and they expect to be allowed to play them, even if it's antithetical to the DM's view of the game. And that's all part of the new D+D "Options, not restrictions". What relief is there for the DM, and where does the DM draw the line? (Why should I feel guilty if I don't want a player playing a Kobold Ninja in my low-fantasy urban campaign?)

I work very hard to craft a good, engaging session, and not everything fits into my view of the game. At this point, I'm allowing stuff from the Core Books and the "Complete" books, with other requests looked at on a case-by-case basis.

Personally, I enjoy a balanced mix of combat, NPC interaction, puzzles, etc. (In short, a little bit of everything). And, since we're talking about design philosophy, I'll comment that I've never gibed with the idea that XP is primarily gained by defeating monsters, though I have little hope of that changing in the future.

In my current campaign, I'm fairly liberal with the XP actually, offering rewards for playing alignment well, using class abilities, coming up with a clever (or sometimes just funny) plan, avoiding an enemy when needed, and a HOST of other things.
 
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ShadowDenizen said:
The amount of books I buy has been rapidly decreasing of late, and most of the books I do buy are setting-specific (Midnight, some Eberron), or fluff-centric, as that's what I tend to need in my campaign.

And, as time passes, I find myself become more controlling as a DM in terms of the books and supplements I allow in my games. The prevailing attitude that I see more and more is "Everything but the Kitchen Sink", where, due to the sheer volume of material out there, players have access to umpteen books and supplements to choose from, and they expect to be allowed to play them, even if it's antithetical to the DM's view of the game. And that's all part of the new D+D "Options, not restrictions". What relief is there for the DM, and where does the DM draw the line? (Why should I feel guilty if I don't want a player playing a Kobold Ninja in my low-fantasy urban campaign?)

I work very hard to craft a good, engaging session, and not everything fits into my view of the game. At this point, I'm allowing stuff from the Core Books and the "Complete" books, with other requests looked at on a case-by-case basis.

I dissagree that that is in any way a fault of the system. There are three "core" books in the game. PHB, DMG, and MM. All others are Optional accessories. It's always even in other editions of the game, been the DM's job to make the final call on what books and rules were allowed.

The difference now is there are several choices that the DM has when using rules in his game. In prior editions, there was what TSR (or authors in Dragon) came up with, or what you hosue ruled in. (everyone else was sued...)

Now, instead of having to make your own rules, you can see if anyone else has a better idea first. (which is great for time strapped DM's like me!)

But that doesn't mean you HAVE to use every rule out there in your home game!

To me, that's the best idea behind options not restrictions.

ShadowDenizen said:
Personally, I enjoy a balanced mix of combat, NPC interaction, puzzles, etc. (In short, a little bit of everything). And, since we're talking about design philosophy, I'll comment that I've never gibed with the idea that XP is primarily gained by defeating monsters, though I have little hope of that changing in the future.

In my current campaign, I'm fairly liberal with the XP actually, offering rewards for playing alignment well, using class abilities, coming up with a clever (or sometimes just funny) plan, avoiding an enemy when needed, and a HOST of other things.

Defeating a monsters doesn't have to mean killing it. Defeating it simply means you've deallt with it in some way.
 

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