The New Design Philosophy?

Scribble said:
I was never a huge fan of the OM to begin with. Just never fit in with my games I guess.
I didn't have a truly "Asian" part of my 1e HB setting, so ogre magi, rakshasas, and hobgoblins became a part of my "Arabian" lands, where I set many of our adventures. I liked them as antagonists.
Scribble said:
My point about the lair filled with slaves was that since the MM mentioned you'd find them in remote areas... it makes me think of this OM living in a cave decked out in elegence stolen from humans with drugged up (charmed) slave women around him at his beck and call... (almost like that scene at the begining of The Shadow... But replace Alec Baldwin (what HE done lately???) with an Ogre Mage...)
I agree - the brighter members of their kind would use their abilities to waylay adventurers (who usually had the best loot, of course) by luring them into traps using their plethora of abilities, to enslave them and take their stuff.
Scribble said:
But that's what *I* saw... which is the thing about flavor text... it can be wildly different from one person to the next, which is why I can't dissagree with a redesign based on my visualization of a monster. (Kind of like when I see a movie based on a book I've read.)...I can agree that a discussion of how to play the monster distinctive from other similar monsters is a good idea. To a degree. I'd rather not see people feel as if they're being forced into a particular concept of flavor, but a suggested role would be cool...
I agree that each dungeon master's distinctive take is preferable to rote presentations straight from the monster books - a monster than a dungeon master likes and has a feel for will make for a much better encounter or adventure, IMO.

One the other hand, with a little guidance such as showing how its abilities work together, a dungeon master might discover that a monster is much cooler than s/he originally envisioned.
Scribble said:
As for the stats, I think there definitely SHOULD be a big focus on the stats. The numbers and math problems are the essesnce of the "game" aspect of the game. The flavor is what everyone else adds to it.
I don't necessarily disagree - it makes me a bit sad though when really cool stuff gets overlooked because of the emphasis on getting the stat block right.
 

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As long as it's poetry, the rules should be flexible enough to allow it to be written.

But where does "poetry" end and "literature" begin? How about Shakespeare's plays, were they poetry? Can an act be poetry? How about graffitti, or bathroom stall word art? Does poetry need words?

If you don't define the limits of what you're doing, then it can become hopelessly vague, so much so that a book like "How To Write Poetry" becomes functionally useless because it boils down to "Do something and call it poetry and if people agree, then that's what it is."

With regards to game design, unless the qualities of the game are defined, the game becomes hopelessly vague make-believe, and a Player's Guide on make-believe is pretty useless because it is whatever you believe it to be.

There is no debate about what is and is not a sonnet, where it bleeds into something else entirely. That doesn't mean one can't be creative in a sonnet, or even twist and manipulate the rules of a sonnet to entirely new creative ends, but that does mean that it's a useful, precise word with a definate meaning and can have definate organization.

D&D doesn't need to liberate anyone's imagination. The imaginations are already pretty inventive if they find D&D at all appealing ("every rpg player is an amateur rpg designer"). What it does need to do is define it's goals and how it's going ot achieve those goals so that people who want different goals can clearly see what points will add to it and what points will not.

I may break the format of a sonnet in half and twist it into some sort of Frankenstein's monster of wordplay like I do with my D&D games. But that doesn't mean that I think the goal of "defining a sonnet" would destroy anything.
 

The Shaman said:
One the other hand, with a little guidance such as showing how its abilities work together, a dungeon master might discover that a monster is much cooler than s/he originally envisioned.I don't necessarily disagree - it makes me a bit sad though when really cool stuff gets overlooked because of the emphasis on getting the stat block right.


Yeah, but one guy's really cool is another guys lame... Check out the discussion of MMIV and whether or not Spawn are "dorky..." So maybe with the stat change you can't play the OM as infiltrator extrordinaire... But just because you might not envision playing THAT story, doesn't mean the new idea won't inspire a new story that is just as cool to someone...
 

Re: games as poetry:
Kamikaze Midget said:
With regards to game design, unless the qualities of the game are defined, the game becomes hopelessly vague make-believe, and a Player's Guide on make-believe is pretty useless because it is whatever you believe it to be.
Absolutely. Define the overall qualities, by all means...that it has to use words, probably ought to make at least a bit of sense, and so on. But don't micro-manage by forcing it into the pigeonhole of being a sonnet...you can *suggest* a length of 14 lines, for example (WotC did this with their so-called market research saying campaigns lasted 1-2 years), but if I want to write an 85+ line poem with my game (have a campaign that runs 10+ years) then so be it.

Another way of looking at it from a design perspective would be to say that macro-management is the province of the game designers, while micro-management should be the province of the individual DM's. Of late, though, there seems to be a trend toward design micro-management through ever-more-restrictive rules and rulings (example: someone posted earlier the differences between 3.0 and 3.5 Command spell), and I suspect that's what's spawning threads like this.

D&D doesn't need to liberate anyone's imagination. The imaginations are already pretty inventive if they find D&D at all appealing ("every rpg player is an amateur rpg designer").
Often, this is true. Often, however, it is not...people come to the game *to* get their imaginations going, or out of curiosity.

Lanefan
 

pogre said:
I think the design philosophy reflects a broader general demand for the game. You can poo-poo the thing as just trying to get video gamers, but that's akin to saying they are just trying to appeal to highschoolers, and well, yeah - they are. And should.

The designers should be relativewly unconcerned with the needs of a sophisticated DM - we're all different and we can adjust. They need to be most concerned with two groups - folks getting into the game and having fun right away and those with limited time who want maximum fun in the time they have. Consideration for hardcores like us has to be secondary at best.

The number one complaint from folks about 3E is it is too complicated. The entry level to the game is just too high.

The task then for D&D designers is two-fold:

1. Simplify.
2. Greater ease of use.

Complications are easy - simplifications are where the true geniuses of design shine.
You win the thread. It's hard for us to swallow, but folks like us do not matter in the big scheme of things. The vast majority of D&D players have never visited ENWorld (or any other rpg-oriented web site) and have constantly asked for one thing: simplification. We can complicate the game up as much as we like. Complication is easy, as you said -- all anyone has to do is dig up their house rules from 1978 to prove that.
 

Lanefan said:
Of late, though, there seems to be a trend toward design micro-management through ever-more-restrictive rules and rulings (example: someone posted earlier the differences between 3.0 and 3.5 Command spell), and I suspect that's what's spawning threads like this.
Or it could be design trying to fix things that people complain about by having better definitions.

I don't know of too many spells throughout the various editions that have had more complaints than Command. It was long considered a "munchkin's dream" because of the vague wording and attempts to make it more powerful than it should be for a first level spell. I remember an early Sage Advice column about someone trying to command "Suicide" for example.
 

Glyfair said:
Or it could be design trying to fix things that people complain about by having better definitions.

I don't know of too many spells throughout the various editions that have had more complaints than Command. It was long considered a "munchkin's dream" because of the vague wording and attempts to make it more powerful than it should be for a first level spell. I remember an early Sage Advice column about someone trying to command "Suicide" for example.
I also remember "suicide" being ruled as invalid...but "die" was always in play until 3.5; the target essentially feigned death for a round on a failed save, then got up and carried on. But why limit people's options to just 5 rather bland things? What's wrong with using a Command to make someone "jump", for example, or "fly" (if target has an active flight effect, they'd use it, otherwise just stand and foolishly flap their arms like wings), or "dance", or "disrobe", or whatever? This is what I mean by micro-management; it should be up to each DM whether to allow an outside-the-box Command attempt to work or not, as what's fine with one might not be fine with another.

I've had players in my games trying to "break" spells for many years; Command has existed throughout, and has never been a problem.

Lanefan
 

Absolutely. Define the overall qualities, by all means...that it has to use words, probably ought to make at least a bit of sense, and so on. But don't micro-manage by forcing it into the pigeonhole of being a sonnet...you can *suggest* a length of 14 lines, for example (WotC did this with their so-called market research saying campaigns lasted 1-2 years), but if I want to write an 85+ line poem with my game (have a campaign that runs 10+ years) then so be it.

I don't think I've ever seen any Game Police stopping anyone from doing that. ;) People will take D&D and contort it into their own designs, and WotC is sympathetic to that (the constant mantra of it being YOUR game is quite prominent, and I don't see them saying much to the contrary).

The problem is, I shouldn't have to contort it in order to make it do something in the first place. Controting it will happen regardless -- but it should have an initial composition that can be reasonably baseline. Specificity isn't limiting, it's exemplifying. Just because there are only four actions listed doesn't mean that's the only possibility, it just means that those four actions are standard and if you want something different, it's up to your own creativity and impetus to come up with it, and WotC will help you as much as they can, but they're not going to do it for you.

Another way of looking at it from a design perspective would be to say that macro-management is the province of the game designers, while micro-management should be the province of the individual DM's. Of late, though, there seems to be a trend toward design micro-management through ever-more-restrictive rules and rulings (example: someone posted earlier the differences between 3.0 and 3.5 Command spell), and I suspect that's what's spawning threads like this.

I don't see the 3.5 spell as more restricting at all. I see it as more specific, giving more examples of what could possibly be done, more recommendations for it. I see it as exemplifying what a spell like Command should be able to do, giving me a hook on which to hang all sorts of spells that are variations on it, all sorts of spells that are power-ups of it, all sorts of different tweaks on it.

Some people will limit themselves to what is listed. Some people will be creative and use it as a launching point for variance. Some people will use what is listed to new and creative tactical ends, not changing the spell but using it in unexpected ways. Nothing about the spell states that the world is limited by it.

I don't have time to micromanage my campaign, nor do I have the interest to do so. I'd much rather make a campaign setting than rules for a non-specific spell. I'd much rather invent a new spell than try to figure out an old one. I'd much rather use a rule than ignore it. I'd much rather make a story than try to figure out how to tell it. I'd much rather macromanage -- develop big ideas, ongoing plots, motives, villains, memorable encounters, amazing scenery, and epic battles -- than micromanage -- fiddle with rules, get skill points right, invent uses for pointless abilities, worry about miniature's placement, drawing the map to accurate scale, etc. Mircomanaging is dull and boring and I'll gladly pay someone else to do it for me. But a monster's HD is not memorable to me. What's memorable is if that monster kidnapped an important member of royalty and is holding him for ransom.

I don't remember that an OM has charm person. I remember that he can get people to cooperate. That could be an SLA, or it could be a high Intimidate skill or an impressive Diplomacy skill or a Bardic Music ability, or a magical helmet, or any one of a million different variations on how to get the same effect. I want to worry about the effect, and the designers can worry about how, excactly, that effect is achieved.

Often, this is true. Often, however, it is not...people come to the game *to* get their imaginations going, or out of curiosity.

Games aren't there to be inspirations, and they shouldn't try to be (beause they won't be good ones and still be good games). Inspirations can come from movies, music, books, TV, videogames, poetry, art, epics....not from the rules themselves. That makes D&D "too much like D&D," gets obssessed with the pointless minutae that has little reason for exisiting in the first place.

When given an ability that doesn't make sense for a monster, I don't bother to think "Ooooh, what can I do with this neat talent?" I just wonder why it's there and then never use it. Because I already HAVE an idea for the monster, otherwise I wouldn't be bothering to use it in the first place.
 

Re: Command spell
Kamikaze Midget said:
I don't see the 3.5 spell as more restricting at all. I see it as more specific, giving more examples of what could possibly be done, more recommendations for it.
3.0 and earlier, yes. 3.5 as written limits the caster to the 5 options presented.

I don't have time to micromanage my campaign, nor do I have the interest to do so. I'd much rather make a campaign setting than rules for a non-specific spell. I'd much rather invent a new spell than try to figure out an old one. I'd much rather use a rule than ignore it. I'd much rather make a story than try to figure out how to tell it. I'd much rather macromanage -- develop big ideas, ongoing plots, motives, villains, memorable encounters, amazing scenery, and epic battles -- than micromanage -- fiddle with rules, get skill points right, invent uses for pointless abilities, worry about miniature's placement, drawing the map to accurate scale, etc. Mircomanaging is dull and boring and I'll gladly pay someone else to do it for me.
I think like that as a player...I detest having to micromanage encumbrance, arrows remaining, and so on. But as a DM I see it as my job to do the micromanaging you describe above (other than inventing uses for pointless abilities).

Games aren't there to be inspirations, and they shouldn't try to be (beause they won't be good ones and still be good games). Inspirations can come from movies, music, books, TV, videogames, poetry, art, epics....not from the rules themselves. That makes D&D "too much like D&D," gets obssessed with the pointless minutae that has little reason for exisiting in the first place.
Hmmm...the vagueness of the 1e rules inspired me and many others to some pretty good ideas (and some very bad ones, but hey) in game design...and I'm glad of it. :)

Lanefan
 

When I first picked up the 3.0 PHB and MM, I saw that monsters were being given class levels and said to myself "cool, now all those goofy critters with a bunch of random spell-like abilities will be rewritten to have spellcasting levels instead." I turned to Ogre Mage, and was immediately disappointed. So I ignored the official Ogre Mage and just used Ogres with sorceror levels in the same role. Worked fine, and captured a heck of a lot more "flavor" than any random suite of abilities held over from 1E or earlier since I could customize my Ogre Magi via spell selection to make them sneaky or charming or warrior-leaders or whatever. Worked well.

Nowadays, though, I'm not as happy with that method, since adding class levels to critters can become a lot of work. What I'd really like to see is a much greater use of templates to customize creatures - take a basic Ogre, apply a "War Leader" template of combat stuff to make it a better fighter, then some kind of magic template to match whatever magical role I have in mind. IMHO this is a much better idea than having a bunch of different monster statblocks and figuring out which one is best.

So IMHO, the "new design philosophy" is just a more rational version of what's been going on for thirty years, the endless process of churning out critters to fill monster supplements. Nothing particularly new about it, it's just a more coherent process now. The new philosophy I'd like to see is still pretty far off - it'd focus more on making it relatively easy for DMs to put together unique critters rather than making them buy even more monster books.

That said, Mearls' redesigned Ogre Mage works better than the traditional version IMHO, so even though WOTC are on the wrong track, at least they're paying more attention to turning out quality material than in the past. So give 'em one thumb up from me.
 

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