D&D 5E The new Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set - and online tools?

[Mistwell]

But that's the thing. It is D&D for 8 pounds. It is probably already a loss leader. A few pages of simple chargen couldn't have made it into the box? And I sure do hope you don't mean the 'snearing' nor 'stupid' coments for me.

I hope it works. I just think it's a missed opportunity.

Chargen is not a few pages. You have to describe all the classes, all the spells, all the races, rolling for abilities, buying equipment, alignment, all kinds of stuff. The PreGens eliminate a lot of pages in that process. In no version of prior beginner boxes that I know of is chargen just a "few" pages. It's always a good chunk of the pages.

 

[darjr]

Chargen is not a few pages. You have to describe all the classes, all the spells, all the races, rolling for abilities, buying equipment, alignment, all kinds of stuff. The PreGens eliminate a lot of pages in that process. In no version of prior beginner boxes that I know of is chargen just a "few" pages. It's always a good chunk of the pages.

I think a bunch of that, after 1st level anyway, is already in the starter set. Spells, class feature descriptions, race feature descriptions, equipment and alignment, all kinds of stuff. So I think a simple chargen including all of that already in the starter could be possible. But I don't know for sure, I haven't seen the contents of the starter.

 

[Shadimar]

I think a bunch of that, after 1st level anyway, is already in the starter set. Spells, class feature descriptions, race feature descriptions, equipment and alignment, all kinds of stuff. So I think a simple chargen including all of that already in the starter could be possible. But I don't know for sure, I haven't seen the contents of the starter.

The main other thing that is missing from the Starter Set is all the available paths for each class. We don't know how many they settled on (whether 2 or 3 or more) that's a lot of additional information for each class as well.

I sent a tweet to Mike to confirm what they are doing with paths in the starter kit

mikemearls will the D&D Starter Kit pre-gens have assigned paths at lvl 3 or are they an option saved for PHB?
Mike Mearls ‏mikemearls 6m
Dropbear_AU assigned paths, chosen from PH options
Dropbear_AU 3m
mikemearls cool, will the 15% of the PHB that is being made available contain the other paths or is that a wait and see ?

Still waiting on a reply to that last question.

 

[mechascorpio]

But that's the thing. It is D&D for 8 pounds. It is probably already a loss leader. A few pages of simple chargen couldn't have made it into the box?

Cost of those few (or many) pages is not the only issue. They still have to be read. They still have to be comprehended. For experienced players like us, no problem. For those completely new to role-playing (the actual target market of this box), it could be a problem. I think Mearls has said a number of times that they wanted the Starter Set to be something that players could be playing (not reading) within 10 minutes. It's aimed at the potential DM, so obviously their own pre-game investment in the rules will be more substantial, but it doesn't have to be the same for character players. Especially 3 or 4 of them at a time, all for the first time: reading the rules, comprehending the rules, referencing rules, filling out character sheets, asking questions, and so on. There is probably a substantial part of the potential market that would not feel they are yet "playing the game" at this point. So let them play the game in the box as-is, and then decide if they want to make a further investment in time, money and so on through custom character generation and custom adventures. It's not so different a philosophy employed in other hobbies, whether it's pre-painted snap together model kits, or tee ball! And, yes, there are few on this forum that want to play tee ball but we are not the target audience. Sure, many of us will buy it, and that's how these mystery extras will come into play.

I think it's exactly the right place to draw the line in the sand for a Starter Set. It's not a Basic Set. Even the Basic sets of old were not necessarily designed or considered to be the introduction to AD&D. Basic and Advanced really were two different games for a long time, two different product lines.

 

[darjr]

@mechascorpio;

I don't think chargen needs to be mandatory. Have the set be the same and mark the chargen as optional or to be read after initially playing.

 

[mechascorpio]

I don't think chargen needs to be mandatory. Have the set be the same and mark the chargen as optional or to be read after initially playing.

So your thing, though, is that that needs to be printed, and included in the box. The extended online options being guessed at are not enough. Is that right?

This discussion puts me in mind of an experiment that I could possibly run. Quick background: I started playing in '78 with Basic, got the Advanced books later but I really wouldn't say that we were playing AD&D. Continued playing using B/X and BECMI through part of the 80s, then pretty much left the hobby. Came back out of interest in 4E, but it didn't do much for me. Since I'd skipped the whole 3.x/D20 era, I thought I should check that out. Bought the 3.5 Player's Handbook and was completely overwhelmed. Interesting reading, but I didn't want to play that game and, by extension, Pathfinder. Spent the past few years playing D&D mostly through retroclones and my old materials.

But a few months ago, I bought the Pathfinder Beginner Box, because I love boxes, because I'm old. Haven't done a thing with it. So despite my role-playing background and some familiarity with the systems recent years, it's all pretty much new to me. If I were to open that Beginner Box, I genuinely wonder how long it would take me to digest it, get 3 or 4 friends who were completely new to it, and run it (chargen and all) RAW. Would we get to the adventure the first night? Would they have fun diving in through the rules review process and building their own characters, even if it took an hour or more (would it?). It would be really interesting to stopwatch all the steps and judge everyone's reactions. If I were really ambitious (and had more close friends), I would even repeat the experiment, but this time let the players choose from a small stack of pregens, and dive right into the adventure.

It would be an interesting way to kill time between now and July. Except I think I'm more interested in saving it for the D&D Starter Set, and I really only have so many friends.

 

[thalmin]

Looking at the playtest documents, Create a Character section covers about 5 pages. But that doesn't count what you create with. Add a few pages for ability scores. You are referred to the Races chapter. Let's trim that one to 2 pages per race, no subraces. That's 8 pages for the 4 basic races. And the Classes chapter, add at least 2 pages per class, so 8 more pages. Two classes cast spells, and if you want to choose your own spells, add a page for spell lists (I'm figuring we can get by with shortened spell lists), then maybe 6 or 8 pages for the spells (fortunately some spells are on both lists). A couple pages for armor, weapons, and equipment. You have easily added more than 32 pages of rules. That's more than doubling the rulebook. And an awful lot to read before a kid can start playing.
And I know the 1E AD&D PHB covered this in fewer pages, but that was a much smaller font.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Chargen is not a few pages. You have to describe all the classes, all the spells, all the races, rolling for abilities, buying equipment, alignment, all kinds of stuff. The PreGens eliminate a lot of pages in that process. In no version of prior beginner boxes that I know of is chargen just a "few" pages. It's always a good chunk of the pages.

There is a word that keeps getting used and I'm not quite sure why?

ALL

All classes?
Of course not. Just the basic core 4 would do.

All races?
Nope. Just a few classic core ones would be fine.

All spells?
No. Just a sample of the most common/iconic spells usable by low level characters.

Rolling for abilities?
Oh, the pagecount for throw X dice for six scores is so heavy.

Moldvay Basic chargen (including equipment and spell descriptions) is 13 pages. The entire book is 64 pages so it is around 20% of the book.

 

[Hussar]

ExploderW that's the point. In those 13 pages you had virtually zero options. You have assign stats, pick class, buy equipment. That's it and it still takes 13 pages.

Imagine how long that becomes in a game where you have options after first level.

 

[Mistwell]

There is a word that keeps getting used and I'm not quite sure why?

ALL

All classes?
Of course not. Just the basic core 4 would do.

All races?
Nope. Just a few classic core ones would be fine.

All spells?
No. Just a sample of the most common/iconic spells usable by low level characters.

Rolling for abilities?
Oh, the pagecount for throw X dice for six scores is so heavy.

Moldvay Basic chargen (including equipment and spell descriptions) is 13 pages. The entire book is 64 pages so it is around 20% of the book.

So we agree, it's not a few pages. Unless the definition of "few" has drastically changed.