The (new) Immortals Handbook Thread

[Darkness]

Hint: If your user account currently is suspended, you're not supposed to simply register a new one and continue posting.

 

[Kavon]

Hi Kavon mate!

Hey again, U_K

No. You are thinking about paradoxes.

Yeah, I know. That's what I meant though.. If everything is possible, then it should also be possible to 'undo' damage that cannot be 'undone', which is a paradox. But, I see it's not really a paradox with what you mentioned below this:

Absolutely. However to 'undo' the effects of entropy you would have to be a Time Lord. So thats not really a viable option for epic campaigns.

So it's not impossible to undo, you'd just have to have the right contacts Makes for some nice epic roleplaying, I'd say

The optional ideas I had (in effect the cheats) were that a wish/miracle might restore 1 hp (definately incurring a loss of 5000 XP). Or that a god with the Healing portfolio who also had more Hit Dice than the monster who caused the damage in the first place could heal you with a miracle (again 5000 XP loss, but this time the damage restored would be equal to its divine bonus, rather than a single hit point).

Hmm... Maybe some Exp cost directly related to the CR could work as well?

True, however entropy is essentially nothingness, inertia. There is nothing to legitamately restore! Which is why you should really have to be beyond the power of the first one of entropy to overcome it.

Yeah, but it is possible (if unlikely), so I'm satisfied

- Bestiary (Preview)
- Bestiary
- Apotheosis

Ah, ok :3

*remembers this would most likely be found on the site* >.<

 

[Upper_Krust]

Heya mate!

Well, going to the epic spell system is your first mistake.

Cheeky.

And frankly, there's no way that a titan hitting for 205 normal damage is the same as him hitting you for 41 points of perma-damage, or any other such ratio.

So then how would you rate, say for instance, Vile Damage?

Consider that, if a PC takes 41 or 8 points of permanent damage, that's 41 or 8 points of damage that every encounter from there on out gets to "deal" to that PC "for free"

So mechanically it does exactly the same as energy drain and ability drain/loss and vile/sacred damage UNTIL such effects are restored/healed.

-- they don't have to exert any effort because those HP (formerly part of a character's hard-earned build) are now "gone."

See above.

That is the crux of my argument against the philosophy that such an ability can ever be balanced. You (not necessarily YOU) cannot predict the weight of every encounter from that point on and factor it into the perma-damage creature's CR. It's just not happening.

I thought I already explained how do determine its new CR.

As a semi-avid coder here and there, I understand this principle, but I don't think testing a numeric generically is going to suffice. This monster tips the balance of every encounter that takes place after its own. Very... very hard to predict how this abiity will affect a PC down the road.

Hard, but not impossible. All we need do is determine the average after all.

"Could", but most likely will not. See above.

Never say never.

Maybe not on paper, but for everyone sitting at the table with their hard-earned builds... Again, knowing the risk in one encounter or not is almost irrelevant here, as this beast messes up ALL your future encounters.

Its powerful like that.

Because the PC must really lose to suffer this defeat. Give the beastie nasty damage and have it "take" a point of Con from anyone it kills. They come back weaker, but it's a more understandable set of circumstances.

Permanent damage stays, it perfectly suits the creatures concerned. However I may make the miracle/wish restoration legal rather than optional...I don't want to have to foot the bill for the tissues needed to mop up all the tears here.

Of course that may reduce it to a mere x4 modifier.

I disagree. Given that resurrection is over-common, removing the ability to do so "flawlessly" brings back the doubtful application of such magic. It'd be like dropping the cleric back to using raise dead instead.

In terms of epic play thats just nothing though.

Beyond that, a 70th-level character who was on an even Con will lose 70 hp permanently from such an ability, but again only if they die. I think it "balances" better considering the effort some people can put into a character by then.

For what its worth you have given me an idea for another ability (not the above, but something similar).

I disagree. See my example above. Beyond that, energy drain can be fixed using restoration spells. This ability, by default, cannot be cured at all. There's a vast difference.

Energy Drain is relatively weak, easily blocked, easily fixed and for many deities (who are immune) irrelevant. Same problem with Ability Drain/Loss.

Hehehehe... sorta. Even then, see my above examples for reasons why this ability cannot ever be balanced.

I think it can quite easily.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey S'mon!

In 1e let Wishes add hit points, up to the maximum a character could have rolled, so that's a potential way around permanent damage - in fact with 3e I'd probably let a real 5000 XP Wish give +1 hp/level*, 350 XP Limited Wish +1 hp.

Interesting idea. I might borrow it.

*Before you ask, Craig, I know your Thrinians are loaded down with confetti-like Rings of Wishes from 1e modules.

Yeah my top end wizards and fighters are running around with more jewelry than Liberace and Mr.T respectively.

Those are only giving +1hp tops.

Not that fussed...I have other plans for those rings.

I tend to see a permanent-damage creature NOT AS SOMETHING YOU SHOULD BE FIGHTING. I'm not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp. Maybe it's a 3e thing. In 1e Legends & Lore, Death gets 10 attacks/round, auto-kill on a hit, no save. So... don't fight him.

He shows up when you roll '99' on the Random Deity Encounter Table...'00' is when you accidentally encounter the Cthulhu Mythos.

It's still worth statting such creatures, and there are ways to beat them - dead magic zones, spells etc. Don't see it as an "orc with bigger numbers" waiting in a dungeon for PCs to find & kill.

...unless its Gruumsh's Fortress Dungeon.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey again, U_K

Hiya dude!

Hmm... Maybe some Exp cost directly related to the CR could work as well?

I quite fancy this limited wish/wish idea.

Yeah, but it is possible (if unlikely), so I'm satisfied

Ah, ok :3

*remembers this would most likely be found on the site* >.<

I haven't updated that in so long I feel ashamed to be honest.

 

[Sledge]

So if strictly speaking this is like unrolling hit points, then it would have to be minimized at 1/lvl rolls. Anything beyond that is not unrolling HP anymore, but reducing constitution or HD. The more I think about it permanent damage probably has a very big write up eh? Because after permanent damage minimizes rolls, then it would have to have different effects depending on how dangerous it is supposed to be.
My thinking is that after minimizing HP any permanent damage would also reduce Con as appropriate for the HP loss. To lessen this lethality I would consider having a rule that unless the damage is sufficient to actually reduce the con it is converted to normal damage.

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

Thanks for the conversion system, very interesting.

You're very welcome. It's a bit off topic with the current thrust of the thread but I know how conversions interest you.

You know these two are very accurately converted, especially taking my tweaking of Marvel Superhero Weaponry to a proper scaling system.

What's interesting is that the conversions that emerged required no tweaking whatsoever. Other than the "Marvel multiplier" which only represents the average roll of 1D6 (3.5 rounded up to 4), all other numbers are based on the SWD6 absolute scaling rule (+2D for speeders . . . +24D for the Deat Star) and the SWD6 relative scaling rule (which limits the highest number value assignable to each die in a given dice pool when smaller scale objects roll against higher scale objects), the application of both of which are canon in SWD6. I found that the conversion system, which I think is rather intuitive, tends to work well from everything to lightsabers/force lightning to X-Wing lasers to the Death Star.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I am absolutely over the moon at the moment. Just watched the champions league final, and Liverpool (the team I support) making the greatest comeback in the competitions history. Absolutely unbelievable game!

...I hope you were watching from Jamaica poilbrun mate!

So if strictly speaking this is like unrolling hit points, then it would have to be minimized at 1/lvl rolls. Anything beyond that is not unrolling HP anymore, but reducing constitution or HD. The more I think about it permanent damage probably has a very big write up eh? Because after permanent damage minimizes rolls, then it would have to have different effects depending on how dangerous it is supposed to be.
My thinking is that after minimizing HP any permanent damage would also reduce Con as appropriate for the HP loss. To lessen this lethality I would consider having a rule that unless the damage is sufficient to actually reduce the con it is converted to normal damage.

I could be wrong (my head is in the clouds at the moment) but I think you could be overcomplicating things a tad. Or maybe I am, saying it impacts natural hit points first and supernaturally accrued hit points second. I'll have it worked out properly for the Bestiary though, no worries.

I've also decided to be lenient and use the limited wish/wish idea as being able to bring back 1 hp or 1 hp/level respectively (incurring EXP costs of course).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey U_K!

Hiya mate!

You're very welcome. It's a bit off topic with the current thrust of the thread but I know how conversions interest you.

What's interesting is that the conversions that emerged required no tweaking whatsoever.

Well I think once you have a solid working base built on logic, its always easy to extrapolate.

Other than the "Marvel multiplier" which only represents the average roll of 1D6 (3.5 rounded up to 4), all other numbers are based on the SWD6 absolute scaling rule (+2D for speeders . . . +24D for the Death Star) and the SWD6 relative scaling rule (which limits the highest number value assignable to each die in a given dice pool when smaller scale objects roll against higher scale objects), the application of both of which are canon in SWD6. I found that the conversion system, which I think is rather intuitive, tends to work well from everything to lightsabers/force lightning to X-Wing lasers to the Death Star.

Very neat indeed. However, wasn't ship weaponry doubled when used against characters...unless I am remembering that wrong (it was 15 years ago after all).

 

[historian]

Hey U_K!

I am absolutely over the moon at the moment. Just watched the champions league final, and Liverpool (the team I support) making the greatest comeback in the competitions history. Absolutely unbelievable game!

Sweet!

Very neat indeed. However, wasn't ship weaponry doubled when used against characters...unless I am remembering that wrong (it was 15 years ago after all).

Actually there are two rules that applied in this instance. The first is that the SWD6 system had an absolute (in the sense that it didn't vary) "scaling factor" that was to be applied when objects of different scale made opposing rolls against one another. It works(ed) as follows:

Absolute Modifier

Character Scale -- no additur (In other words, Darth Sidious' 15D in "sense" was 15D period).
Speeder Scale (think Luke's land speeder in Ep. IV) -- + 2D
Walker Scale (AT-ATs or the Juggernauts depicted in Episode III) -- + 2D
Starfighter (X-wings, Tie Fighters) -- +6D
Capital Scale (Star Destroyers) -- + 12D
Death Star Scale -- + 24D

This was the base modifier that, frankly, made total sense but didn't paint the complete picture. For instance, the official Turbolaser damage for a Class II Star Destroyer is 10D. After the Absolute Modifier was applied, damage was 22D (10D + 12D). This is fine when applied as a damage factor against average characters (strength = 2D) or even exceptional characters (strength = 4D +2), but wholly inadequate when we take into account that Yoda, with a Control stat of 14D, can use the force power Absorb Energy in conjunction with spending a Force Point to boost his ability to absorb 28D of damage. In other words, Yoda would stand a substantially better than average chance of completely absorbing, at no harm to himself, a full power frontal assault from a Star Destroyer. That's absurd.

Recognizing this (apparently), the SWD6 designers also came up with a relative "scaling factor" to manage interaction. SWD6 worked on a dice pool basis, and the relative scaling factor assigned a maximum value for each die. For example, dice rolls above 2 for characters would be capped at a value of 2 when rolled against "Speeder Scale" objects. This relative "scaling factor" was codified in a matrix. Basically, I just worked out an expected value ratio If the maximum die value ratio for character to speeder was 3 to 6, then the multiplier was * 1.75 -- representing the average of 1 + 3 and 1 + 6 respectively and so on down the scale). Reducing this modifier to an absolute value, I came up with the following (definitive) values:

Character = no modifiers
Speeder = + 2D * 1.75 * Marvel factor (*4)
Walker = + 4D * 3 * Marvel factor (*4)
Starfighter = + 6D * 5.35 * Marvel factor (*4)
Capital = + 12D * 9.4 * Marvel factor (*4)
Death Star = + 24D * 33 * Marvel factor (*4)

I realize that's a mouthful, but thus far, this formula yields conversions to Marvel that I think are pretty accurate. To expand on my earlier example, a "full on" blast from an X-wing would do 257 damage (roughly Sh-Y) under the Marvel rules. I can live with that.