OGL The new OGL 1.2, What is Victory?

Greggy C

Adventurer
just because you never cared doesn’t mean you should extrapolate to the rest of us. Had we listened to the likes of you from the start, we’d still have 1.1
Not even close to the truth. I cared about most of the changes, but I don't really care enough to follow the revocation changes.
The old license caused a stagnation in D&D. Hundreds of people just regurgitating 5th edition or basic D&D over and over.
Really killed off innovation.

Even now its countless people just copying D&D, changing a few words, then saying "I got another D&D".
 

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that is your prerogative. I am kind of waiting to get the best 1.2 we can, only for WotC to fail at revoking 1.0a ;) At that point the best part of 1.2 would be whatever ends up in CC, if they succeed I might still have an acceptable (to me) 1.2


yeah, I used this symmetrical… so is the answer ‘no’ then or a ‘we have no idea’? Does anyone actually know for sure?

They could release their entire back-catalog (trademarks included) under a CC license, and it still wouldn't really compensate for the damage it would do if they could somehow "deauthorize" the OGL 1.0a going forward. WotC's contribution to the Open Gaming Content out there is frankly minuscule. See the section 15 copyright notices here, for example: Legal Information – d20PFSRD

Regarding the old FAQ, those were the assurances made. Where I live, that's a key part of how a court would actually disambiguate any wonky wording in the agreement itself. It's a statement of intent right there, and me accepting the terms of the OGL was conditioned on that. It's practically part of the contract.
 

I dont think the average player wants to see the continuing lack of innovation with just same content repackaged over and over.
There have been plenty of innovations in the TTRPG scene since the introduction of the OGL, they just haven't captured a large market share. And while it's true that most of the truly innovative stuff has been more experimental than the traditional rivals from the 90s, I don't really think that's related to the licensing situation.

With no OGL for the past 23 years, I guess we'd just have less RPG publications overall. D&D would still have been the dominant name, and the barriers to entry would have been even worse without the safe harbor from lawsuits provided by the OGL.
 


Wasteland Knight

Adventurer
There have been plenty of innovations in the TTRPG scene since the introduction of the OGL, they just haven't captured a large market share. And while it's true that most of the truly innovative stuff has been more experimental than the traditional rivals from the 90s, I don't really think that's related to the licensing situation.

With no OGL for the past 23 years, I guess we'd just have less RPG publications overall. D&D would still have been the dominant name, and the barriers to entry would have been even worse without the safe harbor from lawsuits provided by the OGL.
In my personal experience, in the past 35ish years the barrier to new, innovative gaming experiences has never been finding new innovative products, but rather, finding players who want to engage with a game that isn’t the same old thing. Particularly when it came to a different rules set using different mechanisms.

The OGL allowed designers to present their take on a gaming experience, but with enough commonality to the existing dominant rule set to make it approachable to a larger audience.

Far better yo have nanyang choices snd use my discretion in purchasing than only the mono choice mod WOTC.
 

In my personal experience, in the past 35ish years the barrier to new, innovative gaming experiences has never been finding new innovative products, but rather, finding players who want to engage with a game that isn’t the same old thing. Particularly when it came to a different rules set using different mechanisms.
Do you think this problem was exacerbated by the relative ubiquity of OGL 3PP when that became a thing?
 

The OGL allowed designers to present their take on a gaming experience, but with enough commonality to the existing dominant rule set to make it approachable to a larger audience.
There is also the fact that prior to the OGL novice designers had to come up with their own system if they had a sellable idea for a setting or adventure. As a novice, it is unlikely they would have the connections or capital to pursue a license from a publisher with a system (like TSR and Wizards) just so they can focus on writing adventures.

With the OGL, designers and authors can focus on a specific part of the RPG market, making it easier for folks to carve out their own niche. Or bootstrap themselves into becoming a full-blown publisher. The way to give the marginalized a voice is to drop the barriers to entry.
 

Are you going to be a proponent of this 20 years from now when somebody whose ethos and morals you disagree with is in charge of Hasbro? Wielding the power, that this license grants them?
yes as long as hasbro/wotc is interested in making money then the person in charge isn't who I care about... they have to listen to the fans or not make money.

The same way I just spent weeks pushing Rifts, Torg and the like if you want to keep your d20, or Savage Worlds and Vampire if that isn't something you care about... if they do bad things with it I will do that again. If enough follow my lead they will change or lose all the money
Yes they are, I hope they become your lines as well, but if you decide differently that is fine.
thank you, this is a rare thought on these boards today
 

They yanked an anti-captialist work as hateful, while adding terrible racist baggage to the Hadozee in their own work. I don't trust who's in charge NOW with morality policing, let alone 20 years from now.
I spoke out against the 'eat the rich' adventure and no one listened... I didn't catch the Hadozee thing until others did, then I added my voice and they changed it. A company like WotC/Hasbro has a financial motive that is easy to hit if we all work together.
 

In my personal experience, in the past 35ish years the barrier to new, innovative gaming experiences has never been finding new innovative products, but rather, finding players who want to engage with a game that isn’t the same old thing. Particularly when it came to a different rules set using different mechanisms.
Having creative freedom means accepting that one's personal tastes may never be the most popular. The good news is that it isn't a zero-sum game anymore. We not competing for limited shelf and warehouse space. You can make a go of it with a customer base in the hundreds. A living with a customer base in the thousands.
There are games like Backgammon, Chess that are just that good. My opinion is that the core mechanics of D&D are just that good and a rare example of the first mover in a new niche getting it right (mostly it took Greyhawk to solidify it) from the get-go. And I say this even tho I still consider GURPS my favorite RPG and I would write for it if SJ Games had an open 3PP program.
 

I spoke out against the 'eat the rich' adventure and no one listened... I didn't catch the Hadozee thing until others did, then I added my voice and they changed it. A company like WotC/Hasbro has a financial motive that is easy to hit if we all work together.
You are still a supplicant entreating a feudal lord to do the right thing. Rather than being truly free to pursue one's own creative interests. Or support others whose creative interests align more with yours. I realize those are harsh words but strip away all the talk and apologies and that is what we are left with. My choice is to refuse to submit. I hope in time you make the same choice as well. But if not it is fine by me.
 

eyeheartawk

#1 Enworld Jerk™
They yanked an anti-captialist work as hateful, while adding terrible racist baggage to the Hadozee in their own work. I don't trust who's in charge NOW with morality policing, let alone 20 years from now.
I missed this somehow, what was the anti-capitalist work thing you're referencing?
 



I think we have victory if the next OGL will have a clause, that if you use OGL, you need to assign OGC of your own instead of just taking.

I also think the anti-injunction clause seems fair to include. It is protecting them against bad players.

The anti inclusivity clause should protect them vs LaNasas, but it is too difficult to execute fairly. I just hope WotC stomps the NuTsr so har into ground that noone else tries anyway.
 

You are still a supplicant entreating a feudal lord to do the right thing.
I'm sorry but these analogies are getting more and more insulting. No one is going to hold up a feudal lord...

We are looking at what they want, and what they are offering.
Rather than being truly free to pursue one's own creative interests. Or support others whose creative interests align more with yours. I realize those are harsh words but strip away all the talk and apologies and that is what we are left with. My choice is to refuse to submit. I hope in time you make the same choice as well. But if not it is fine by me.
 


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