The new playtest Exhaustion rules has already fixed the exploration pillar a lot.

[FallenRX]

The problem with the old exhaustion is that its was far too punishing, and detrimental to the point where the players would never wish to interact with it beyond the first level, limiting choice and also limiting how you can use it, as giving the party Exhaustion beyond level 1 basically meant a death spiral due to their speed getting halved and attacks being useless to where it critically will drastically slow them down, or they would just die.

The playtest actually fix this by focusing it all on incremental minuses, that isnt much to begin with but add up, this is great design because due to it being far less punishing at first, players can actually choice to interact with it in a meaningful way, and make interesting decisions.

For example, Forced marching is actually an option the players can consider now, only getting level 1 was worth it, and it only marches you for an extra hour before you have to risk the check again which one a failure massively slowed you down. Now since its only a minus one if you fail, its actually worth the risk, especially since slowdowns on, even if you fail all the checks if you wanna move an extra 12 miles, its only a -4 which is about as bad as disadvantage, with not too many slowdowns. This might be worth the risk to some players, and i can see players choosing to march forward to get there, and risk the minuses.

On top if this, due to how brutal the previous exhaustion rules were, the game could not meaningfully use its food and water rules, because it was too brutal, and gave a lot of ways to circumvent it because it was simply not fun or deal with the old exhaustion, now due to it being a much slower progression, it actually isnt too bad, the game can now be harsher on food and water requirements without being too detrimental, and the DM can make scarcity an issue without completely tanking the game after 2 levels of exhaustion, the players can also take more risks in places where food and water isnt plenty, and even take risks and conserve food/rations sometimes.

The best part of all this, is the DM can use exhaustion as a risk or downside to challenges in the wilderness now without completely screwing over the players, now the players can choose between more arduous routes that are shorter, with the risk being taking levels in exhaustion vs the less arduous but longer route, you also can use this as a punishment for failing exploration skill challenges without completely killing the party, you can basically use exhaustion as a long term cost for the exploration pillar, an alternative method of attrition without having to use player resources, and combat, and there are a variety of ways to deliver it, from food and water, costs for failing skill challenges, to a conscious decision of traveling over the more exhausting path. This honestly excites me, and i can see why the design was made.

Pair this with the new long rest rules, and how easy it is to interrupt long rest now, players deciding to not sleep to keep traveling or find an appropriate safe place to rest becomes a viable option, this makes the game imo a lot more interesting. I personally am excited.

What are your thoughts?

TLDR: The new exhaustion rules not being as harsh so quickly, allows the players to actually engage with it as a risk, and DM's to use it as a consequence of exploration, and a way to pressure players outside of just combat/resources, without completely screwing over the players immediately like before.

 

[Charlaquin]

I strongly disagree.

 

[Aurel Guthrie]

Agreed. And the cool thing about it is that the dm can give different activities different levels of penalties. Staying up all night might give you 1 point of exhaustion, while pushing yourself to the limit and marching for 16 hours might give you 2-3 points

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Well...it helped.

Fixed a lot might be pushing it a little. There's still many ways it could be improved, but it's indeed a step in the right direction.

 

[Cadence]

I strongly disagree.

And now, because I often find your opinions edifying, I find myself wondering why you strongly disagree.

(But, certainly, don't feel the need to do any labor just to satisfy my curiosity. Just keeping up with real work and things one is interested in can be exhausting enough!)

 

[Charlaquin]

And now, because I often find your opinions edifying, I find myself wondering why you strongly disagree.

(But, certainly, don't feel the need to do any labor just to satisfy my curiosity. Just keeping up with real work and things one is interested in can be exhausting enough!)

I greatly prefer the more specific effects of the various levels of exhaustion over a boring blanket numerical pentalty. For much the same reason that I prefer magic items that have unique effects over generic +X magic items, and the same reason I prefer gaining new abilities on level up over simply increasing HP and proficiency bonus. Numbers are the least interesting part of an RPG to me, so any mechanic that is expressed solely through a numerical modifier is inherently less interesting to me than one that is expressed through exceptions-based rules. Furthermore, I think the harshness of the exhaustion penalties was a feature, not a bug. There’s value in having status conditions with real teeth, as that gives them more power to create strong gameplay incentives. Classic exhaustion is one of very few things other than straight-up character death that could meaningfully threaten PCs of any level in 5e.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I greatly prefer the more specific effects of the various levels of exhaustion over a boring blanket numerical pentalty. For much the same reason that I prefer magic items that have unique effects over generic +X magic items, and the same reason I prefer gaining new abilities on level up over simply increasing HP and proficiency bonus. Numbers are the least interesting part of an RPG to me, so any mechanic that is expressed solely through a numerical modifier is inherently less interesting to me than one that is expressed through exceptions-based rules. Furthermore, I think the harshness of the exhaustion penalties was a feature, not a bug. There’s value in having status conditions with real teeth, as that gives them more power to create strong gameplay incentives. Classic exhaustion is one of very few things other than straight-up character death that could meaningfully threaten PCs of any level in 5e.

I see what you are saying here, and agree with the sentiment, but always found the stages of exhaustion arbitrary and not particularly evocative. Why do your ability tests always suffer before attack rolls (which are really just a specific kind of ability check).

How about a list of negative effects, with the worst effects toward the end. Every time you gain a level you roll for a new effect with the next size die, starting at d4?

 

[FallenRX]

I greatly prefer the more specific effects of the various levels of exhaustion over a boring blanket numerical pentalty. For much the same reason that I prefer magic items that have unique effects over generic +X magic items, and the same reason I prefer gaining new abilities on level up over simply increasing HP and proficiency bonus. Numbers are the least interesting part of an RPG to me, so any mechanic that is expressed solely through a numerical modifier is inherently less interesting to me than one that is expressed through exceptions-based rules. Furthermore, I think the harshness of the exhaustion penalties was a feature, not a bug. There’s value in having status conditions with real teeth, as that gives them more power to create strong gameplay incentives. Classic exhaustion is one of very few things other than straight-up character death that could meaningfully threaten PCs of any level in 5e.

I agree with the concept of the old exhaustion but not the method, because it was too harsh too quickly to where players do not wish to engage with it or take the risk of it ever after a single level of it. It needs to be on a longer stage list, especially for how things in 5e were very hourly.

 

[TerraDave]

I greatly prefer the more specific effects of the various levels of exhaustion over a boring blanket numerical pentalty. For much the same reason that I prefer magic items that have unique effects over generic +X magic items, and the same reason I prefer gaining new abilities on level up over simply increasing HP and proficiency bonus. Numbers are the least interesting part of an RPG to me, so any mechanic that is expressed solely through a numerical modifier is inherently less interesting to me than one that is expressed through exceptions-based rules. Furthermore, I think the harshness of the exhaustion penalties was a feature, not a bug. There’s value in having status conditions with real teeth, as that gives them more power to create strong gameplay incentives. Classic exhaustion is one of very few things other than straight-up character death that could meaningfully threaten PCs of any level in 5e.

That table was pretty cool, but agree that in practice it was just so harsh. You also had to keep looking at it.

The newer one is easier to memorize. And being less harsh, its use can be expanded, in ways that make sense. Want to give an extra penalty for being dropped in combat--a level of exhaustion. Or for sleeping rough, instead of pushing on to get to the inn, or have the next possible encounter--a level of exhaustion.

 

[Lojaan]

I like it a lot but I don't think it will impact exploration. Exploration is about "discovery", not "travel".

People be like "there is no exploration!" whereas nearly every moment that your character is actively doing something, that is not an encounter, or RP, is exploration. Rolling a perception check? Exploration. Arcana check to see what those runes mean? Exploration. Going to a temple to search it for clues? Exploration. Trying to find out who the bad guy is? Trying to find them? You get it.

Exploration is basically doing the adventure, and as a pillar, it is doing just fine.

The newer one is easier to memorize. And being less harsh, its use can be expanded, in ways that make sense. Want to give an extra penalty for being dropped in combat--a level of exhaustion. Or for sleeping rough, instead of pushing on to get to the inn, or have the next possible encounter--a level of exhaustion.

Um these ideas are AMAZING. Love it. Such a great idea - sure having a long rest in an inhospitable place (cough dungeon cough) will give you back your HP, but those levels of exhaustion will start to add up fast...

 

[Justice and Rule]

I greatly prefer the more specific effects of the various levels of exhaustion over a boring blanket numerical pentalty. For much the same reason that I prefer magic items that have unique effects over generic +X magic items, and the same reason I prefer gaining new abilities on level up over simply increasing HP and proficiency bonus. Numbers are the least interesting part of an RPG to me, so any mechanic that is expressed solely through a numerical modifier is inherently less interesting to me than one that is expressed through exceptions-based rules. Furthermore, I think the harshness of the exhaustion penalties was a feature, not a bug. There’s value in having status conditions with real teeth, as that gives them more power to create strong gameplay incentives. Classic exhaustion is one of very few things other than straight-up character death that could meaningfully threaten PCs of any level in 5e.

I feel like there has to be a middle ground between evocative but too mechanically harsh to be used often, while easier mechanically while lacking flavor.

 

[Charlaquin]

I feel like there has to be a middle ground between evocative but too mechanically harsh to be used often, while easier mechanically while lacking flavor.

I think the classic exhaustion is just the right amount of harsh, personally. But I guess I’d rather a nerfed version of it than the version that’s in the UA.

 

[Alby87]

This new exhaustion can help a lot fine tuning the exploration pillar mechanics: for example, not eating for a day is two level of exhaustion up, but eating a goodberry could raise exhaustion by only one (thus eating and foraging classic food is still a need but not as urget as before, or totally useless if a Goodberry user is in the party).

Slepping in a safe and confortable place like a inn, PC's home, guest of a friend can relieve you of 2 or more exhaustion level. Resting inside the wilderness or a cleared dungeon level (every time your party has to set a watch, even if you don't take your turn) can let you lose only 1 of those level. Sleeping inside Leomund's Tiny Hut can also be a relieve only 1 level, to nerf a little a really good spell.

And (but this something I just came up, if there is a blatant error, please ignore), when waking up, spellcaster can have spell slots used by exhaustion, starting from the top ones, with a conversion like 2 levels - 1 slot. So parties with spellcaster will try to be as rested as possible, and long trekking in the wilderness without a good plan can be dangerous again at very low level, a challenge at tier 2 and so on.

 

[Benjamin Olson]

Furthermore, I think the harshness of the exhaustion penalties was a feature, not a bug. There’s value in having status conditions with real teeth, as that gives them more power to create strong gameplay incentives. Classic exhaustion is one of very few things other than straight-up character death that could meaningfully threaten PCs of any level in 5e.

I also like the flavor and harshness of the 5e system in the right context. As a punishing status effect to inflict on characters it works pretty well and is evocative. I wish it was used more. Dropping to O HP should involve taking d4 levels of exhaustion or whatever.

As something players knowingly and willingly risk taking levels of it has mostly been a failure, because they are willing to do things that cause or risk exactly one level of exhaustion (if the payoff is very high), possibly 1 or 2 more in an actual emergency, and that's it. And the designers mostly recognized this early on and designed very few abilities that willingly self inflicted exhaustion.

And, while I find it evocatively fun for a few minutes of gameplay, the nature of getting rid of it means that a character who takes multiple levels at an inopportune point in the adventure might have a multi-session slog of being pretty boring to play, which is probably why, as a mechanic, it barely gets used in official materials.

 

[Horwath]

I like the UA part. but also it needs gradual speed penalty and AC penalty with d20 roll penalty and DC penalty.

 

[Li Shenron]

Mah, for me exhaustion rules are useful only if they're interesting and that means if the effects are a big deal at once. If I have to keep track of fiddly -1s, I am simply not going to use exhaustion rules.

I'd rather even have less than the current 5 levels of exhaustion before death, maybe 2 levels called "exhausted" and "severly exausted" would be enough.

 

[Maxperson]

What are your thoughts?

I regularly use exhaustion without it becoming a death spiral. Levels 1 and 2 are actually pretty common, level 3 is uncommon and one PC has hit level 4. I personally see the new exhaustion as weakening a decent tool.

 

[Maxperson]

I agree with the concept of the old exhaustion but not the method, because it was too harsh too quickly to where players do not wish to engage with it or take the risk of it ever after a single level of it. It needs to be on a longer stage list, especially for how things in 5e were very hourly.

The vast majority of the time it's not up to the players when it happens. As for not taking the risk after level 1, that's one of the best parts of it. It has real teeth and players have to think hard about pushing forward, except sometimes they have to or risk failure in what they are trying to achieve. Do they take the risk of exhaustion, or do they take the risk of failure? That's a real choice.

I've seen my players choose both options, depending on the situation and party goals.

 

[Horwath]

Problem with current exhaustion is that it is unfair to certain character concepts.

Most fighters and spellcasters will not take notice at level one exhaustion while a skill monkey build like scout is so hammered that their only smart solution is going to bed and sleeping it off.
And it's not that skill monkeys are most overpowered thing in D&D

-1 to everything affects all concepts mostly the same, unless you are a heal-bot, but that is probably the weakest build in the game, so I guess that is OK.

 

[Maxperson]

Problem with current exhaustion is that it is unfair to certain character concepts.

Most fighters and spellcasters will not take notice at level one exhaustion while a skill monkey build like scout is so hammered that their only smart solution is going to bed and sleeping it off.
And it's not that skill monkeys are most overpowered thing in D&D

That's not my experience, but then I use knowledge checks pretty liberally, and everyone feels the hit to perception, investigation and stealth. In fact the skill monkeys with their expertise handle exhaustion the best. Disadvantage means less when you have higher bonuses.