The New Red-Box...

[Windjammer]

Level 1-2 with leveling up only once is pathethic. There's no polite way of saying this. It also doesn't make sense if you juxtapose it with the free H1 module and the subscription free variant of the Character Builder both of which go up to level 3 for good reason.

My initial hopes that this would be significantly better than the 2008 starter box have been crushed. I wouldn't be surprised if the monetary reasons which hampered the last version's size hampered this one too. Wait for the "oooh, including 3rd level would have made this box too expensive" posts from WotC.

Well, welcome to the real world where badly designed boardgames aren't bought even if they have a slightly reduced price tag.

 

[Ariosto]

Hold on. Does that "progression path" basically boil down to $60 instead of $35 for the PHB1, or maybe $60 for a partial PHB1+MM1 combo versus $70 for the whole? What's the deal for a DM?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Seems strange that they don't want to advertise things like that publicly, and at the moment are busy hiding it behind their subscription only service.

It's aimed at newbies. It will take a few month to get out. They can create free previews when it's actually close to the release date.

 

[vagabundo]

Just two levels kind of threw me there, then - as someone mentioned above - I though of the CB and that has three levels free. With just 5 dollars you can download everything.

So it looks like they will have information about the character generator and DDI in the box. And then push them to get some of the other Essentials line. Or go toward a full PHB/DMG/MM set.

 

[delericho]

When I first heard about this, I thought it was a fantastic idea. We've needed a really good Basic Set for years now (since the cancellation of the old Red Box, in fact).

Unfortunately, they've made exactly the same mistake they always make with these things: it's too short. Two levels just is not enough, especially with the much faster levelling rate in 4e (compared to BECMI D&D).

Basically, if someone likes this set, they very quickly have to graduate to the 'real' game, at which point they've wasted the money they spent on this set. If they don't like it, they've just wasted the money on this set.

IMO, of course.

(Also, IMO, a Basic Set must include character generation, as this one does, and must use the same rules as the 'real' game, not a simplified version thereof. Otherwise, in addition to making the "big jump", the players will also have to unlearn the rules they've just learned.)

 

[Ariosto]

I think one reason the old basic sets covered levels 1-3 was that changes to the rolls to hit or save did not kick in until 4th. The few more column inches was probably not so significant (See the combat matrix for monsters attacking.) as the neat simplicity in presentation and practice.

Spells were the big deal, but another 16 pages or so (e.g., taking the Holmes Blue Book up to Moldvay's 64, or Moldvay's presentation up to 80 pp.) could have been plenty to cover that. (Magic items, monsters especially relative to Moldvay, and of course wilderness adventures and the power-politics "endgame", could still have yielded a second volume.) Editorial concerns meshed with commercial ones -- but in a way that to my mind delivered excellent value for players, versus the "white box" plus supplements that the "B/X" sets replaced.

Powers take up many more pages in the 4E PHB. That's a basic element of the game design, not just the presentation. There's a built-in trade off in which more levels = fewer classes, or vice versa.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I think one reason the old basic sets covered levels 1-3 was that changes to the rolls to hit or save did not kick in until 4th. The few more column inches was probably not so significant (See the combat matrix for monsters attacking.) as the neat simplicity in presentation and practice.

Spells were the big deal, but another 16 pages or so (e.g., taking the Holmes Blue Book up to Moldvay's 64, or Moldvay's presentation up to 80 pp.) could have been plenty to cover that. (Magic items, monsters especially relative to Moldvay, and of course wilderness adventures and the power-politics "endgame", could still have yielded a second volume.) Editorial concerns meshed with commercial ones -- but in a way that to my mind delivered excellent value for players, versus the "white box" plus supplements that the "B/X" sets replaced.

Powers take up many more pages in the 4E PHB. That's a basic element of the game design, not just the presentation. There's a built-in trade off in which more levels = fewer classes, or vice versa.

1 extra level certainly would mean new 3rd level powers. That might be a reason why they decided for 2 instead of 3 levels. I guess that would mean about 4-8 extra pages (for 2-4 powers per level.)

It might also contain magical items, and a 3rd level might warrant new magical items. If they keep the treasure parcels around, this would mean up to 8th level items, I think. Probably another 2-4 pages at least (spread over weapons, implements, neck slot items and armor).

And of course, if their goal is to include adventure material for 1-5 players for 3 levels, this would also add extra pages. Probably about 20 pages (assuming 10 encounters á 2 pages and no additional non-combat texts - which of course is unlikely, but then, some encounters might be harder so 8 encounters might be enough.)

So the cost of one additional level and getting it "right" could be about 32 extra pages. I guess that would be another 10 $, judging from the Dragonborn softcover book (IIRC).

Aside from Paragon Paths and Epic Destinies, at 2nd level the players would have "seen" all the mechanical aspects of a 4E character.
Ability Scores, Background (if they include them?) Race, Class (with Build Option), Feat, Skills, Encounter Attack Powers, Daily Attack Powers, Utility Powers. To learn how the game plays, you should have everything at 2nd level.

 

[Danzauker]

The way I see it, they are trying hard not to do the mistake they made in the past.

A "basic" line of products that becomes a competitor for the "advanced" line and splits the market for, what, 20 years?

The new Red Box just shows newbies the basic mechanics of the (heroic tier of the) game, such as:

- how to make a character
- how to use powers of each category (at will/encounter/dailyattack/utility)
- how to level up

To show all this you just need to get to level 2. And they throw in tiles, dice and all stuff you should need to run the game,

If you like this sample, then you REALLY ARE supposed to get the PH and ditch the box.

I'd would have liked to see it go through to level 3, but I realize this is not a product made for me, and I probably would not buy it anyway...

 

[CharlesRyan]

I think this is a great looking product, with a fun nod to nostalgia, but I wonder who's the target market. Just about anyone who would get the reference to the old product is already aware of 4E, and either plays it or has rejected it in favor of another system. [. . .] I don't want to be negative, especially because this looks great, but I wonder if it isn't nostalgia at work. Thoughts?

Actually, there are tens of millions of people who used to play D&D, but don't anymore. Most of those have positive memories of D&D--probably even still think of themselves as "gamers"--but have been out of touch with the game and the community for a decade or two. They haven't made up their mind about 4E; they're barely aware of it if they're aware of it at all.

Why don't these people play D&D now? Because they fell out when the went off to university, or got married, or had kids, or moved because of their jobs--all the lifestyle changes that occur in the years after what is the peak D&D-playing period for most of us. But guess what? They aren't moving around as much, those kids are getting older, and they have more free time and disposable income then they had in the 90s (or whenever).

Many (millions, probably) of these guys would love to get back into D&D, if there was just some easy way for them to get started again. Along comes the Red Box, with the same basic entry process they remember fondly from the first time.

If WotC succeeds in reaching out to these guys, of making them aware of the Red Box, this could be hugely successful. The target market is frankly enormous, and they don't really have to win them over this time. The memories do it for them!

 

[bagger245]

Hold on. Does that "progression path" basically boil down to $60 instead of $35 for the PHB1, or maybe $60 for a partial PHB1+MM1 combo versus $70 for the whole? What's the deal for a DM?

Well, if they expect newbies to switch to the Core books after the Essentials, it does seem expensive isn't it?