The New Red-Box...

[Ariosto]

So the cost of one additional level and getting it "right" could be about 32 extra pages. I guess that would be another 10 $, judging from the Dragonborn softcover book (IIRC).

I reckon they were looking at something like that -- maybe a 50% increase in price. Printing and binding with economies of scale are probably still in whole-signature (such as 16-page) increments, however else technology may have changed. "Let's just add five pages" is thus probably not on the menu, even if it would suffice.

 

[Ariosto]

A "basic" line of products that becomes a competitor for the "advanced" line and splits the market for, what, 20 years?

Not really. TSR made the sale either way, and so did the retailer carrying both lines. It's like a restaurant offering different dishes, except that the goods are not perishable.

I did not see any need for "Cheeseburger, cheeseburger, cheeseburger!"

The big difference with TSR was that the several D&D and AD&D lines really were more like different editions of books than like utterly incompatible "operating systems". So far from there being some process-halting technical malfunction in trying to run an "Advanced" module with "Basic" rules, or vice-versa, they were to such an extent identical that I knew some folks who were not even aware of the distinction.

WotC has chosen instead to base its business on incompatibility. If you want to use the latest new modules, then you almost need to get the "upgraded core" as well.

The flip side is that some folks will prefer to skip the whole nine yards. Instead of getting doubled sales, what WotC gets from them is nada anymore. So, it's back to the remaining well for a third and fourth dip.

 

[Imaro]

The reason they didn´t do it was that you sell stuff first to your established market, and then you pull in newbies. Not the other way round. A year of beginner products would have turned off A LOT of fans.

And level 1-2 reduces the wall of powers significantly. Good decision. This box has to teach fun gameplay without driving people off. For that, one level is enough.

Emphasis mine... Yes because all the other tries, by WotC, with boxed sets exactly like this (including a 3.5 one with character generation rules, tiles and minis)... worked great.

What's that old saying about insanity being the repetition of the same action over and over again and expecting a different result.

I guess they will probably get an increase in sales due to the nostalgia factor, but really... how is this different from what they've put out before, and yes the 4e starter set was even in some Toys R Us in the boardgame section.

 

[ferratus]

WotC has chosen instead to base its business on incompatibility. If you want to use the latest new modules, then you almost need to get the "upgraded core" as well.

The flip side is that some folks will prefer to skip the whole nine yards. Instead of getting doubled sales, what WotC gets from them is nada anymore. So, it's back to the remaining well for a third and fourth dip.

The upgrades to the rules are on the PC side, and those upgrades are in terms of different options, not revisions to the rules. Since the monsters are pretty much self-contained in their stat blocks, you don't need to know what new feats/powers do in "source book X" like you did in 3e.

 

[Jhaelen]

The big difference with TSR was that the several D&D and AD&D lines really were more like different editions of books than like utterly incompatible "operating systems". So far from there being some process-halting technical malfunction in trying to run an "Advanced" module with "Basic" rules, or vice-versa, they were to such an extent identical that I knew some folks who were not even aware of the distinction.

WotC has chosen instead to base its business on incompatibility. If you want to use the latest new modules, then you almost need to get the "upgraded core" as well.

Huh?!
I have to admit I have no idea what you're talking about here.

So, Basic D&D and AD&D were completely compatible and D&D 4E and D&D 4E Essentials will be incompatible?

Since I haven't seen anything from 4E Essentials, I cannot comment on the latter, but the former is about as compatible as using the novel 'The Hobbit' as an adventure module for either D&D or AD&D. i.e., yes, you can steal the plot.

Or are you talking about something completely different?

 

[Nebulous]

My initial gut reaction was that the Red Box was very cool looking and nostalgic (although i barely played Basic and never owned it). My second thought was that it seemed unecessary given that we already have all the 4e rules that we need. But...and there's usually a but...the amount of rules can be overwhelming for children so maybe this is a good marketing move for them. I don't know if i'll pick it up or not.

 

[bagger245]

Emphasis mine... Yes because all the other tries, by WotC, with boxed sets exactly like this (including a 3.5 one with character generation rules, tiles and minis)... worked great.

What's that old saying about insanity being the repetition of the same action over and over again and expecting a different result.

I guess they will probably get an increase in sales due to the nostalgia factor, but really... how is this different from what they've put out before, and yes the 4e starter set was even in some Toys R Us in the boardgame section.

I am wondering about this nostalgia factor. How is this boxset any different from the previous starter set apart from the red cover?

 

[Ariosto]

I have to admit I have no idea what you're talking about here.

If you are acquainted with any one of the 1974, 1978, 1979, 1981, 1983, 1989, etc., TSR editions of Dungeons & Dragons, then I can count on your knowing what I'm talking about when I'm talking "AC4, HD3+2" and so on.

There's no such thing as a "Hit Die" in 4E, and no such thing as most of the 4E jargon in old D&D. Is there a "Weaponsoul Dance" or "Chains of Sorrow" rule even in 3E?

That's the kind of not knowing what they're talking about that I'm talking about.

I made the point in direct response to the post I quoted, which alleged that TSR somehow screwed itself out of sales by offering both the "D&D" boxed sets and the "AD&D" hardbound books.

What actually happened was that TSR sold both sets, PLUS the modules and magazines and so on that were easily usable with both sets. An awful lot of people bought both B2 and G2, for instance, and both the Fiend Folio and the Creature Catalogue. The Monster Manual, the very first "Advanced" product, was in use with Original rules before there were any AD&D Players Handbooks, and kept on selling as long into the Second Edition AD&D era as retailers could get it from the distributors.

The different contents were most often complimentary. For instance, the D&D Companion offered the "War Machine" rules for conducting strategic military campaigns with paper and pencil, while the Battle System dealt in more grand-tactical detail with table-top battles using figurines.

 

[M.L. Martin]

I am wondering about this nostalgia factor. How is this boxset any different from the previous starter set apart from the red cover?

1. Solo adventure
2. (The big one) Character creation rules

 

[Windjammer]

1 extra level certainly would mean new 3rd level powers. That might be a reason why they decided for 2 instead of 3 levels. I guess that would mean about 4-8 extra pages (for 2-4 powers per level.)

I think there are only 4 classes in the box anyway. Each gets 1 encounter power at level 3. Most classes have a choice of 4, which take up a quarter page in the PHB 1 (just checked out the Wizard class entry). So we're talking about a single page en toto. Let's say another page for equipment, and another two for 3rd level monster stat blocks (if they aren't in there already, which I doubt).
You're nowhere near 4 pages unless you factor everything in, and even then...