The New Style

[Klaus]

Yes. Really. Kim Possible rocks out on toast.

I've watched lots of Kim Possible, and they're no better than Juniper Lee or Atomic Betty.

 

[WizarDru]

But even some of those ('The Berenstein Bears') are classics of the type. I'd put that list up against anyone's Saturday morning line up now.

Perhaps you would, but my kids (and for that matter, the vast majority of today's kids) wouldn't. And that doesn't have anything to do with age of the material, either. My kids are discovering (thanks to the addition of Boomerang to our lineup) shows like the Flintstones and lots of classic Hanna-Barbera material (the Wacky Racers is a favorite). That doesn't mean they enjoy drek like Astro and the Space Dogs, though. Mind you, the whole idea of "Saturday Morning cartoons" died in the 1990s. Sure, Fox and the CW still do program blocks...but they rebroadcast almost all of those shows through the week and show them on Cartoon Network and Jetix. Saturday morning as a destination is effectively gone.

However, the male-female dynamic has been turned on its ear so often, that I think it hardly is worth noticing any more.

Could you mention some examples? I can't think of any other shows that make the female the action hero and her male counterpart (and later, romantic interest) as the bumbling comedy-relief and capture-victim that needs rescuing. I mean, Steve Trevor might have gotten rescued by Wonder Woman from time to time, but he was still considered a tough hombre' who punched-out nazis. Ron Stoppable's signature move is to lose his pants in the middle of a fight. Heck, he even has a McDonald's toy that does just that.

Yet all of the shows mentioned as being better than the D&D cartoon (and we are getting a bit of repetition in the lists) are a fraction of what's airing.

Yeah, I know. But the claim that the 80s was a cartoon wonderland filled with nothing but greatness is demonstrably false...that's the rose-colored effect I was referring to. There was even MORE crap, then. The Fonz in a Time Machine? Eeeeeyyyyy. The D&D show was a great series, and broke some ground for kid's shows in the US. I would have been even more impressed with it, had I not already been watching subtitled anime on the local Japanese channel at that point. Seeing the ranger using his bow to knock a weapon out of someone's hand seemed pretty weak after watching Captain Harlock shoot and kill an alien warrior.

 

[dmccoy1693]

I have an even better idea. Get some quality writing talent and do for the original D&D cartoons what the Sci-Fi network has done for the original Battlestar galactica.

Get the Jim Henson people on board for Venger and Uni. They did a great job with Farscape.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Could you mention some examples? I can't think of any other shows that make the female the action hero and her male counterpart (and later, romantic interest) as the bumbling comedy-relief and capture-victim that needs rescuing.

Firefly - Zoey and Wash (You're not going to get a better example then War Stories)
Buffy the Vampire Slayer - Buffy and Xander (granted no love interest, but it is generally the woman that provides the "heart" to the group.)
Charmed (While I never saw the show myself, but its hard to imagine a show about 3 spellcasting women where they don't save their boyfriends, at least once.)

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Could you mention some examples? I can't think of any other shows that make the female the action hero and her male counterpart (and later, romantic interest) as the bumbling comedy-relief and capture-victim that needs rescuing. I mean, Steve Trevor might have gotten rescued by Wonder Woman from time to time, but he was still considered a tough hombre' who punched-out nazis. Ron Stoppable's signature move is to lose his pants in the middle of a fight. Heck, he even has a McDonald's toy that does just that.

I dunno about kid's shows, but teen/18-36 shows? Buffy, Dark Angel, presumably Bionic Woman, almost every comedy show that has a female lead (and there are a lot of them - most recent being Ugly Betty), Cagney and Lacey, Alias, Charmed (ugh), many ensemble cast cartoons have girls in both the "tough" and "smart" roles, etc. I don't buy the argument that it's the "dominant" dynamic, but I would say it's a common one. Notably some female-oriented/dominated shows didn't put the females in a Kim Possible-like role, but rather have men absent, or as inevitably "dreamy" guys (Sabrina, the live-action show, for example).

Personally, I like that dynamic, and think that it would improve society for it to stick with it for a couple of decades before going to a more egalitarian dynamic. Kim Possible is more extreme than most, but that's because a "silly"-oriented cartoon, not because it's "more xtreme" or what have you. Women haven't been "useless" in most drama for decades, so men don't normally have to become "useless" for it to be a reversal, I'd suggest. It's more like a reversal of '50s gender roles, than say, even, '70s gender roles (and the '70s had a lot of tough guys).

As for the D&D cartoon, you were clearly just too old for it

It was no Thunderbirds 2086 or better yet, Ulysess 31, though I admit, and I suspect it's no coincidence those were basically "anime". I love the Gummy Bears too, I have to admit, that was a surprisingly advanced show in a number of ways. Directly inspired a couple of my earliest D&D adventures too, if I'm honest.

I have to admit though, I have little love for Kim Possible, so I'm biased. I find it's aesthetics faintly annoying, and as I said, the male/female reversal seems severely retro to me, not "clever". I mean, when I grew up, my heroes were people like Sigourney Weaver in Aliens, Cagney and Lacey (seriously), Wonder Woman, She Ra and so on (I didn't like He-Man, he seemed like a jerk), so it seems to me like disempowering male characters more, whilst humorous, isn't terribly original. Also that naked mole rat = phallus deal creeps me the hell out.

 

[RangerWickett]

Also that naked mole rat = phallus deal creeps me the hell out.

I never thought that. This adds a whole new depth and subtext to the series, and makes me love it more. Plus, if I were a cartoon character, I would definitely have a crush on Kim Possible.

I'm fully in favor of a new D&D cartoon. However, I'm pretty sure Adult Swim would not pay to create a new fantasy show, though they would air one if somebody else made it (like what htey do with anime).

FOX has a track record for canceling fantasy and sci-fi shows, so we'd need to anticipate the show being brief if it aired on them.

Spike has Afro Samurai, so maybe they would dig D&D.

Sci-fi . . . well, considering the quality of their 'Sci-Fi Original Movies,' I'm not sure they're the safest bet, but they do make Eureka and BSG, both of which are top notch. I suppose it's no more a mixed bag than combining FOX's X-Files with Who Wants to Marry a Multi-Millionaire.

Cartoon Network, The CW, Nickelodeon, or the networks, as a kids shows? Doable, with better potential for marketing toys and such, but would WotC rather have a show to draw in a new generation of gamers, or to spread the brand to 18-35 year olds?

I know that if I were pitching a D&D cartoon, I'd much rather go for an adult-oriented show. And Adult Swim would be the optimal place, though somebody other than Cartoon Network would have to foot the bill.

 

[Shortman McLeod]

Are you kidding me? I was born in '78 and it was only THE show to be when I was growing up.

No way, dude. Everyone knows the Drac Pack pwned the D&D cartoon:

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/d/drakpack.htm

 

[Branduil]

Record of Lodoss War OVA>D&D Cartoon

 

[Klaus]

But the claim that the 80s was a cartoon wonderland filled with nothing but greatness is demonstrably false...that's the rose-colored effect I was referring to.

Well, then, I never said anything so encompassing. I was only referring to the D&D cartoon. I lvoed tons of cartoons back then, but 90% of them are painful to watch now. And some were painful to watch even back then. I mean, when even a 12-year-old can look at Silverhawks and say "y'know, this is just like Thundercats...", that's a bad sign.

 

[Branduil]

It really is amazing how badly Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles aged.