Pathfinder 1E The Nimble Ninja versus the Armoured AntiPaladin

[Cadence]

Paladin had bad HP rolls (would be at least 100 with toughness and 12 con if it used the 6hp/level after 1st that the society does, depending on what he took for his favored class bonus)

Ring of Telekinesis = 75,000 gp <- Is this the main decider? The Ninja has +7 bracers (49,000gp), while the Anti-Paladin has this and a bunch of much smaller things. Does he have some tactical purpose in mind for the ring? It and the +3 Halbred are worth almost as much as a +5 Halbred of wounding, or it and Iron Man's suitcase are worth +5 plate with 2 plusses of special combined with a +5 shield with plus of special.

 

[N'raac]

I too thought the AntiP looked low. Even the other fighter in the party claims a ridiculous AC and he too is wearing Full Plate, but no shield.

I have the AntiP character sheet (hence my better knowledge of this character) but the Ninja one was left at where we play. Doh.

The AntiP AC is Base 10 + Folding Plate +10 + Max Dex +1 (From +3) + Dodge +1 + Large Metal Shield +2 = 24 AC

First thing I note is pretty much no magic for AC. He has focused whatever wealth he has in other areas. I didn't do the math, but he intuitively seems well below the WBL for a L12 character. [EDIT - no, it's the Ring of Telekinesis - again, not an AC focus.] The ability to keep advancing AC is contingent on the ability to direct wealth to that purpose, as AC does not otherwise bump up as levels are gained. A few feats can help a bit (he has Dodge; there are some shield feats) but not a lot. Plus, as you note, his DEX bonus is capped. Special material for his armor is a common approach to getting around that, but again requires money. He also doesn't look to use spells to enhance his AC. His focus is clearly not on defense.

And from memory, the Ninja is something like Base 10 + Bracers +7 + Ring/Amulet of Protection +2 + Dex +5 + Dodge +1 + Size Bonus +1 (Halfling) = AC 26 (off the top of my head – I dare say theres more somewhere)

Looks like a lot more money spent here - maybe he's closer to WBL?

As for hit points, a level 12 Anti-Paladin, with D10 hit points x 12 (+12x +1 Con Bonus), if they rolled an average 5 per roll, that would be 60 + 12 + Toughness 12 = 84.

He starts with 12 hp at 1st level (10 + 1 for CON + 1 for toughness, since he gets 1/level at this point). 72 over the next 11 levels is an average of 6.55 per level, so rolls averaging 4.55, almost 1 below average. He has about average hp for a L12 character with d10, 12 CON and no Toughness. Of course, if the Ninja consistently rolls high, and/or has a better CON, he can quickly outstrip the antipaladin. A CON 12, d10 character, on average, will have the same hp as a CON 14, d8 character (6.5 per roll each; d10 gets a 1 hp advantage at L1).

Looks like he realize his hp were sucking wind, so he took Toughness. With more games switching to point buy, hp is the last random chance aspect of characters.

 

[Metasyntactic]

Some valid observations there.

I hadn’t noticed the ring (nor the cost), but it has been useful for certain things.

Because he’s a Dhampir/AntiP, he uses the stealth a bit (whilst not iron man’d), so its more a dual purpose character – as the party doesn’t really have a scout.

The ring plays a part in underhand things as well as the spell in full force (for pushing). Was also a pivotal in one battle where the party was panicked, dropped all weapons and were 120ft away from the battle. So the AntiP picked up all the weapons (can lift 12 items upto 300lbs total) and flung them all to the back of the room – essentially saving the party. So ill give him that one! haha

I was surprised to see they get pluses to Stealth, but like I said before, it seems more Agent of Manipulation.

Spot on above, there isn’t a focus on AC, and there are a few spells in the arsenal I believe, such as Defile Armour?

Theres a lot of focus on attach (improved initiative, critical etc).

To clarify, its not a Halberd +3 (well, it is) but it’s the AntiPs Fiendish Boon weapon. So becomes +3 at Lv12. The shield is used with the Morningstar in ‘normal’ scenarios and the shield is animated to allow the Halberd in 2H mode.

Hmm, perhaps the AntiP has gone ‘over’ tactical, with their strengths in the bark not the bite?

But working as a type of Infiltrator, he’s playing really well.

Special material for his armor is a common approach to getting around that, but again requires money.

Buy special material? How so?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The character sheet shows this lack of optimization I was mentioning earlier.

For instance, a paladin doesn't generally need a high Dex. In Pathfinder, a fighter can get an advantage out of this due to Armor Specialization, but a paladin cannot. By trading his armor for mithral plate, he could get another +2 AC for minimal cost. Also, he needs to get in enhanced to at least +3. That's only 9,000 gp. Also, he has no other AC-boosting items, specifically a ring of protection and an amulet of natural armor.

I'm pretty sure an animated shield must be magical, so he's lost at least 1 point of AC somehow.

Take a look at the NPC Codex. The NPCs are available for free on one or two SRDs. See if the named paladin is available too; they have PCs at 7th and 12th level. The wealth breakdowns (in terms of offense and defense) are not well understood by a lot of player, and DMs need to learn this and then teach players about it.

Link: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/iconic/seelah.html

Seelah has not optimized her AC but has still gotten 7 points of magical AC (costing her only 25,000 gp since she has both armor and shield).

While a Ring of Telekinesis might seem useful, that's something any PC could use. I don't see anything suggesting it's particularly useful to this anti-paladin. It's taking away 75,000 gp; he should sell it for more useful gear, and leave telekinesis to a wizard PC who can cast it by this level.

The ninja's AC-spending isn't perfectly optimized, but at least they made an attempt. While we don't have their sheet yet, it seems they really did badly in the attack area. Someone needs to get that ninja a magical ninja-to or short sword!

Defile Armor won't work: As sanctify armor (You imbue your armor with a righteous aura. It gains a +1 enhancement bonus per four caster levels (maximum +5 at 20th level). When using your judgment or smite ability, you gain DR 5/evil.), except you gain DR 5/good when using your judgment or smite ability. (Since the anti-paladin cannot smite the ninja.) Although I suspect this is useful in most encounters, if it's an evil party.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

The anti-paladin's armor and shield appear only slightly enchanted, whereas the ninja has purchased +7 bracers of armor, an item worth 49,000gp. If the anti-paladin were to invest as much in his own AC, it would be on par with the ninja's.

My current PC is a dex-based magus, and as far as I can tell, dex-based characters have no special advantage over heavy armor builds until you get into super-high dex levels (we're talking +10-+11 here). Until that point, max dex bonus restrictions on armor will keep the two even.

I do wonder what the anti-paladin has done with all that extra money that the ninja spent on his bracers. Does he have a crazyawesomesupersword? Is he riding a dragon? Something?

 

[Metasyntactic]

I do wonder what the anti-paladin has done with all that extra money that the ninja spent on his bracers. Does he have a crazyawesomesupersword? Is he riding a dragon? Something?

I think you missed the prior comments, but he has a 75,000GP Ring of Telekinesis. Its been used a bit, so seems valid. But I'm suspecting this could have been well spent elsewhere.

He does have a crazyawesomesuperhalberd though, but that’s due to his AntiP talents.

I think that’s the short and curlies of it. Its only marginally about the skills points/feats, but more “investment”.

May have to mention this and see if they’ll perhaps do some metagaming, or give the character the opportunity to sell it off (usually the DM is pretty strict with this, and even stricter when it comes to lead times on magical items).

 

[Cadence]

I think you missed the prior comments, but he has a 75,000GP Ring of Telekinesis. Its been used a bit, so seems valid. But I'm suspecting this could have been well spent elsewhere.
<snip> May have to mention this and see if they’ll perhaps do some metagaming, or give the character the opportunity to sell it off (usually the DM is pretty strict with this, and even stricter when it comes to lead times on magical items).

I actually think him having the ring is cool in game and wouldn't try to get him to switch -- it seems like he has an interesting picture in his head for role-playing his anti-Paladin. It's just that he doesn't fill the traditional fighter slot entirely and so isn't great for roll-playing a tank.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I think you missed the prior comments, but he has a 75,000GP Ring of Telekinesis.

D'oh! I did indeed miss that. But now that you point it out, yeah, that explains a lot!

I think that’s the short and curlies of it. Its only marginally about the skills points/feats, but more “investment”.

Yep. Given equal investment, most PCs are going to come out with roughly equal defenses, unless their class is particularly defense-oriented. If one PC puts a lot more of their resources into defense, well...

May have to mention this and see if they’ll perhaps do some metagaming, or give the character the opportunity to sell it off (usually the DM is pretty strict with this, and even stricter when it comes to lead times on magical items).

I somewhat agree with Cadence. Is the anti-paladin's weaker defense becoming an issue? I mean, if he's endangering the group because he's too squishy it might be an interesting in-game RP discussion to have between PCs. On the other hand if the group is trucking along just fine, there's little reason to try and convince him to get rid of the ring.

 

[N'raac]

I think you missed the prior comments, but he has a 75,000GP Ring of Telekinesis. Its been used a bit, so seems valid. But I'm suspecting this could have been well spent elsewhere.

He does have a crazyawesomesuperhalberd though, but that’s due to his AntiP talents.

I think that’s the short and curlies of it. Its only marginally about the skills points/feats, but more “investment”.

I think it's about investment in all areas. I can invest attribute points, skill points, feats, featured class bonuses and wealth in various aspects of my character. I don't think this character is being designed as a tank. A tank focus would suggest higher CON (more hp), more wealth (and maybe feats) spent on AC enhancing armor (maybe a CON item given his low hp rolls), and directing his favoured class bonus to hp (he has 56 skill ranks, and gets 4/level, so he's spent 8 FC bonuses on skills, not sure where the other 4 went - maybe his hp rolls were even worse than we thought).

Given the poor hp rolls, it's just as well he didn't focus on being a tank!

I echo the sentiments above - the current structure is only an issue if the goal was to be a tank, and he's not able to fill that role, but he wants to. It looks like he has chosen to focus on a different role, which is great. Let the Ninja be the guy that's hard to hit and let the AP fill the niche he has chosen to fill.

There's no "wrong way to play". AC can be maximized by spreading bonuses over armor, shield (animated if need be), amulet of natural armor and ring of protection (maybe DEX, etc.), but there is no reason the game must be played as an exercise in maximizing the math, with the characters popping down to the Local Magicks Shoppe to pick up a Ring of Protection 3.0 for each character on its release day.

 

[brvheart]

The 16 in Dex is wasted with the Full Plate and would have been better used in CON giving him another 24 HP. As others have pointed out he has done nothing to improve his AC at level 12. It should be around 30. No magic for the armor, nat armor or ring of protection all to get a ring of telekinesis. Not sure how such a poorly optimized character even made it to level 12.