The one responsible for defense.

[nittanytbone]

A very high individual AC means that (A) you get nuked with Will save spells or (B) you get ignored and just happen to be the last one to fall. You want to be a battlefield controller to really help out your team on defense.

Spiked Chain fighters make ideal battlefield controllers. You need several things to make such a spiked chain fighter effective.

- AoO. Lots of them! Combat Reflexes and 14+ DEX.
- Making your AoO count to stop foes in their tracks. Combat Expertise --> Improved Trip. Plus you need decent STR (I'd say 14+) so that your trip checks don't suck.
- Area Control. This is best done by being Large size, extending your reach and your trip check. Enlarge Person.
- Damage Output. You need to do enough damage that your foes can't ignore you to go after the squishier targets. Power Attack and 14+ STR works. Alternatively, you can use TWF combined with armor spikes and some precision damage (rogue SA works nicely). Power attack is especially nice as you can easily scale it up or down (for example, cranking it up vs. a prone for)
- Will saves. Fighters always struggle with poor Will Saves. Plan for Iron Will.

Putting all that together, you need:

STR: 14+ (For damage output and trip checks)
DEX: 14+ (For AoO with Combat Reflexes)
CON: 14 (You're a primary melee warrior, you need the HP)
INT: 13+ (To qualify for improved trip)
Lots of feats -- at least 4 (EWP, Comb Exp-->Imp Trip, Comb Reflexes), plus either Power Attack or TWF, plus Iron Will.

As you can see, you'll have some MAD here. You'll be dumping either WIS or CHA.

Interestingly, BAB is not as important as you might think -- you just need to make touch attacks to trip folks, which are pretty easy to hit on.

This is what I get when I put all that info together.

RACE - Human. You need lots of feats and have tough ability score requirements. Half-Orc is tempting for the STR boost, but the cost to INT hurts too much in this build. Elf is tempting for the DEX boost but probably isn't worth the CON hit. Dwarf is tempting for the stability, con boost, etc, but feats are awfully tight to make this work, especially at lower levels. Also, the movement rate penalty hurts your ability to stay mobile on the battlefield. Half-elf: Meh, don't bother. Don't even think about the small races.

CLASS - Fighter. Obviously you'll need a 2 or 4 level fighter dip to pick up feats in a hurry. However, fighter is kind of sucky -- you want to avoid more than a 4 level dip if you can avoid it. Also, you want to avoid front-loading the class because your skill points will be so poor.

OTHER CLASSES - There are some options here. Multiclassing should help you quite a bit.

Rogue: A 1, 2, or 4 level rogue multiclass can work nicely. There is good synergy with your intelligence and skills, letting you be the skill monkey. The BAB hit doesn't hurt so bad with touch attacks. Evasion and Uncanny Dodge are nice benefits. Sneak Attack works with TWF and armor spikes to improve damage output.

Ranger: A 2 level ranger dip gets you decent skills and TWF for free, as well as a favored enemy. Best if combined with rogue levels. Light armor has synergy with high dexterity.

Wizard: INT synergy makes this a viable gish build. It also gives you easy access to Enlarge Person. HP will be weak but False Life or the Toad Familiar can compensate. Truestrike can help to offset poor BAB in critical situations. The hidden benefit of wizard levels is that your Will save gets fixed, saving you a feat (or allowing you to take Improved Toughness instead of Iron Will). Sorcerer is less appealing because CHA is one of your few dump stats. The HP situation isn't THAT bad: If you do a 4 level wizard dip (to max out your BAB and Save advantages) with a toad familiar and Improved Toughness, you are effectively getting D8 HD. Throw in false life and you actually have MORE HP than you would have as a straight fighter with D10s.

Cleric: If you can afford 12 or 14 WIS, I'd strongly suggest a 4 level cleric dip. It'll help your will save tremendously, give you a good smattering of spells, and if you get the strength domain you can cast your own enlarge person. MAD makes this a problem, though -- you might not be able to afford a high WIS score.

Monk: Good saves, fair skills, and pick up Improved Trip for free (at level 6) and Combat Reflexes for free. Same MAD issues, however.

 

[Ellie_the_Elf]

*peeps carefully round the corner*

Yeah, so, I'm, um, the DM of this group. Hi. How is everyone?

Alrighty then...a few points to make which may explain some of the carnage....

1. One of the cleric players is completely new to D&D and as such (by no fault of his player) is being played at maybe 50% effectiveness at present. Maybe I should run him through a few one on one fights? I'll see what he says.
2. The other cleric is an archer and as such doesn't have anything like the AC he would need to withstand melee. His player has never played a cleric before either- only an artillery sorceror. He's very much still learning what to do when.
3. I've had four deaths in as many levels. The first of these was due to a 10HP aasimar cleric trying to hold up the bad guy long enough for the actual melee guys to heal up. Second was a rogue whose player is fairly notorious for staying in the thick of things for one more round before he retreats. Third was a gnomish paladin who went up against an ogre already wounded then got critted. And last night Xini's character who was hit by a vampire and level drained while already wounded.
4. I roll openly. And have extraordinarily good dice rolls most of the time. This does not add up to long-lived PCs, particularly...
5. ...when most of them can't roll above a 5 in your average combat
6. At least one of the PCs frequently runs around on low HP because 'the cleric didn't ask if I wanted healing'. I am considering some sort of HP indication system to avoid this- we used to do 'red sticker on the forehead if you're at less than half HP' Maybe we'll return to that
7. It's rare for either of the clerics or the wizard to buff the party
8. Bickering is commonplace. Tactics are not.
9. Rolls on healing wands are almost always very low. I can't explain it. In one recent fight one of the clerics was out for about five rounds trying to heal up and kept rolling ones. Wands of faith healing are now being discussed, but wouldn't help all of the party, so they are figuring out how to balance it.
10. Expertise and similar feats are used liberally, leading to very drawn out fights and more damage being taken over all than if they'd just walked up and smacked the thing.

But what to do?

I've offered them an NPC 'healing bitch' - they don't want one

I've offered to start rolling behind a screen but they feel that that would cheapen their victories.

I'm taking combatants out of many of the fights, and having some of them use suboptimal attack forms (eg last night's vampire - +8 to hit with his mace, doing d8+5. +2 to hit with slam, doing same damage plus level drain. I went with the latter, knowing they had at least one potion of lesser restoration).

I really don't want to be a killer DM- I'm not on a power trip and I don't have an axe to grind against any of my players. I like nothing better than finishing a campaign with the same PCs that started it. I'd really welcome any suggestions on how to get them to function more as a fighting unit.

This is turning into a very long post, so I'll shut up soon

So just one final note- the DMG PrCs mentioned are fine. I'll take a look at RoS!

 

[nittanytbone]

As a fellow DM, I think Ellie is likely being quite fair. Its easy to be fair to a given, set difficulty level when running a module. Also, I believe in statistics in the long run. Here's my rough comments on each of the issues he brings up.

1. One of the cleric players is completely new to D&D and as such (by no fault of his player) is being played at maybe 50% effectiveness at present. Maybe I should run him through a few one on one fights? I'll see what he says.
2. The other cleric is an archer and as such doesn't have anything like the AC he would need to withstand melee. His player has never played a cleric before either- only an artillery sorceror. He's very much still learning what to do when.

Clerics, when correctly played, are the MOST powerful character in the game (except possibly for Druids). Even newbie clerics can be fairly effective, so long as they have WIS 15+, do not multiclass (lose caster levels), and do not have a race with ECL. As DM, it would probably be helpful to walk them through a side-quest solo adventure, perhaps with a more experienced NPC cleric or monk to provide running commentary on how to not suck.

3. I've had four deaths in as many levels. The first of these was due to a 10HP aasimar cleric trying to hold up the bad guy long enough for the actual melee guys to heal up. Second was a rogue whose player is fairly notorious for staying in the thick of things for one more round before he retreats. Third was a gnomish paladin who went up against an ogre already wounded then got critted. And last night Xini's character who was hit by a vampire and level drained while already wounded.

If players fail to properly manage their HP -- especially melee characters -- they will die. If players play races with ECL>0 at low levels, they will be eggshells that die (or are useless). And critical hits always favor the monsters (PCs are rarely immune to crits, and the monsters will make more to-hit rolls over the course of a campaign).

What can you do as DM? First, don't permit ECL>0 races, or if you do, use some sort of LA buy-off, nerfed versions with no LA, or something. If someone wants to play something non-standard, they're better off with a Goblin than a Drow. Next, you can make sure your monsters are using appropriate weapons. Most humanoid riff-raff will have spears and clubs and the like, which are mere Crit x 2 weapons. They will not have swords (broader crit range) due to expense.

4. I roll openly. And have extraordinarily good dice rolls most of the time. This does not add up to long-lived PCs, particularly...

I always roll behind the screen except at critical, dramatic moments where I bring it out front. First off, players should NOT know the exact attack bonus of a foe (which they do if you roll openly). Say that goblin is really an ogre magi with an illusion spell running -- you don't want to ruin the surprise! Second, it allows you to fudge to save a good, well played character that is having bad luck through no fault of the player. Of course, never admit this.

5. ...when most of them can't roll above a 5 in your average combat

I believe in statistics. And PCs have many ways to get around luck of the dice in really critical situations (The Luck domain, Truestrike spells, Buff spells like Bless/Prayer...)

6. At least one of the PCs frequently runs around on low HP because 'the cleric didn't ask if I wanted healing'. I am considering some sort of HP indication system to avoid this- we used to do 'red sticker on the forehead if you're at less than half HP' Maybe we'll return to that

This is the same as issue #3. The spellcasters must budget their spell inventory, and fighters must budget their HP.

7. It's rare for either of the clerics or the wizard to buff the party

That needs to change. The solo one shot with the cleric types might help. Alternatively, begin giving XP or treasure bonuses to characters that fulfill their archetypal role. In 1e, there is a training system that forces you to spend long periods of time (and lots of money) training to level up if you have not been performing in archetype. For example, clerics that refuse to help and heal and magic users that fail to use magic get punished. Some sort of carrot or stick to encourage cooperation might help.

8. Bickering is commonplace. Tactics are not.

As a new DM, I did not like to involve myself in the player decision making process. Later I realized it was necessary to move the game along. I suggest forcing the players to appoint a strong party leader if that will work with your group dynamics, using a "talking stick" to manage discussion, or using an "egg timer" to limit the time of discussion. Rolling checks to see if wandering monsters notice and attack the bickering party -- really obvious checks -- can also be a deterrent to needless argument.

9. Rolls on healing wands are almost always very low. I can't explain it. In one recent fight one of the clerics was out for about five rounds trying to heal up and kept rolling ones. Wands of faith healing are now being discussed, but wouldn't help all of the party, so they are figuring out how to balance it.

I believe in statistics, I bet that over four wands the average has been near 4.5. But regardless, just let them buy a wand of lesser vigor. Bam, much more efficient.

10. Expertise and similar feats are used liberally, leading to very drawn out fights and more damage being taken over all than if they'd just walked up and smacked the thing.

Expertise is fine, but only as a "pin" tactic. The expertise character "pins" the target while someone else does the KO blow (a raging flanking barbarian, an archer, the wizard, whatever).

 

[Rhun]

Here is a straight forward greatsword wielding dwarven fighter build I have been using in a PBP game here:

Korbyrn Rivenshield

The basic concept seems pretty close to the cleric in your party, but this PC has wreaked havoc on our opponents so far, up until he was turned to stone by a stupid cockatrice! Anyway, I thought I'd toss him out there to try and give you ideas.

 

[Nifft]

*peeps carefully round the corner*

Yeah, so, I'm, um, the DM of this group. Hi. How is everyone?

GET HER!!! (j/k)

1. One of the cleric players is completely new to D&D and as such (by no fault of his player) is being played at maybe 50% effectiveness at present. Maybe I should run him through a few one on one fights? I'll see what he says.

An alternate track -- good for the party who hates personal risk -- is to ask the other casters to summon stuff, and then for the melee cleric to use traditional area buffs (bless, prayer) before wading in himself. There are some strong summoning spells in the newer books with a duration of Concentration, so the critter more like a replacement character than an additional action to manage.

2. The other cleric is an archer and as such doesn't have anything like the AC he would need to withstand melee. His player has never played a cleric before either- only an artillery sorceror. He's very much still learning what to do when.

Cleric Archers can be quite strong. Make sure he's casting greater magic weapon on his bow every day, and can cast divine favor frequently -- it may be worth him taking Quicken Spell.

6. At least one of the PCs frequently runs around on low HP because 'the cleric didn't ask if I wanted healing'. I am considering some sort of HP indication system to avoid this- we used to do 'red sticker on the forehead if you're at less than half HP' Maybe we'll return to that
7. It's rare for either of the clerics or the wizard to buff the party

Right. Fix those bits. Communication is key, and buffing can be a real tide-turner.

You could stage a fight and have them play through the same opponents with different strategies on their side... some sort of "groundhog day" event? The opponents use coordinated tactics and buff spells (and do so blatantly). The hint will be taken, or creativity will ensue... or they'll all get frustrated and kill you.

8. Bickering is commonplace. Tactics are not.

Perhaps the BBEGs shouldn't use tactics either? Perhaps there are terrible intra-organizational politics going on... or something else that better suits the play style of your group?

My group uses a mix of tactics and "get 'em!", thus so do the bad guys. Some are tactically smart, some just kick in the door.

9. Rolls on healing wands are almost always very low. I can't explain it. In one recent fight one of the clerics was out for about five rounds trying to heal up and kept rolling ones. Wands of faith healing are now being discussed, but wouldn't help all of the party, so they are figuring out how to balance it.

Average healing instead of rolling?

Cheers, -- N

 

[MarkB]

As an alternative to a straight defense class, try a Dragon Shaman (PHBII). You're not going to be much for attack, but you have most of the proficiencies you need to be a strong defensive character (maybe pick up Heavy Armour Proficiency, or else go with mithral). Take a Longspear so that enemies can't easily go around you, use your auras in battle to bolster your allies, and between combats your Vigor aura will save some of those wand charges.

 

[Wish]

First things first - have a talk with your spellcasters. Buffing and debuffing are incredibly important for spellcasters at all levels. At lower levels, perhaps the most efficient way to accomplish this is arcane debuffing (color spray, grease, ray of enfeeblement and glitterdust are particularly effective). The best cleric buffs start to come in at 5th level (3rd level spells) such as prayer, magic circle against XYZ, and magic vestment. Arcane buffs aren't great until haste either, but enlarge person is worth casting.

Second, after talking with your spellcasters, talk to your DM about whether or not you can use the PHB2 combat form feats. They're fantastic for a "stand alone" fighter type. The first one helps will saves, the next helps against trip and disarm and such, and the higher level ones give blindsight, fast healing and more (for a cost of 6 or so feats over 12+ levels). They're particularly effective when combined with either Elusive Target from Complete Warrior or with Improved Trip and Improved Disarm. You can even do both, if you don't want to use any of your feats on offensive abilities (I recommend picking one and going with it and using your other feats for power attack and weapon specific improvements). This would be a pure fighter build, at least until 12th level.

 

[Quartz]

Are any of the spellcasters creating magic items? They should have bandoleers of scrolls and potions (of healing and buffing).

If you're going for a combat type, try specialising in a halberd or ranseur. They're reach weapons, and because they're both slashing and piercing, you can take Melee Weapon Mastery twice for +5 to hit and +6 to damage at 9th level and +6/+6 at 10th with GWF.

 

[Rhun]

If you're going for a combat type, try specialising in a halberd or ranseur. They're reach weapons, and because they're both slashing and piercing, you can take Melee Weapon Mastery twice for +5 to hit and +6 to damage at 9th level and +6/+6 at 10th with GWF.

Personally, I think that last bit would be up to the DM. I wouldn't allow it, since the damage type is Slashing OR Piercing.

 

[billd91]

<snip>
9. Rolls on healing wands are almost always very low. I can't explain it. In one recent fight one of the clerics was out for about five rounds trying to heal up and kept rolling ones. Wands of faith healing are now being discussed, but wouldn't help all of the party, so they are figuring out how to balance it.
10. Expertise and similar feats are used liberally, leading to very drawn out fights and more damage being taken over all than if they'd just walked up and smacked the thing.

But what to do?

I've offered them an NPC 'healing bitch' - they don't want one

I've offered to start rolling behind a screen but they feel that that would cheapen their victories.

I am currently running the Shackled City for a group and, it's true, the campaign is challenging, more challenging than 4 non-optimized characters not working together as a well-oiled machine can handle. The group I'm running has been 6 PCs (just increased to 7) and they've had 2 deaths in 2 and a half chapters and a few other close calls. They've run through 1 full wand of cure light wounds, one partially charged wand of cure moderate wounds, and are working on burning through another cure light wounds wand... but they have no actual clerics. They have a paladin and a druid who share the role of healer in the party, each with a healing wand.

All that said, any party that doesn't take the steps necessary to adjust to the challenges they are facing deserves to die. It sounds like they are only partially open to suggestions. Xini coming here for advice is a good sign, refusing to accept an NPC healer is a bad sign since it's fairly clear they could use one. And it fits the ongoing story if Rufus Laro goes along with them in return for them saving him from a beating in chapter 1.

Another adjustment you can make:
For healing done outside of combat, let players take the best of 2 rolls. A DM I've played with does this. His rationale is that when you're out of combat, you can take the time and effort to put your healing spell to optimal use. That, and it keeps the party from turtling up and healing too often and for too long, thus keeping the adventure moving. And yet, it doesn't make a fight already in progress into too much of a cakewalk.

As far as rolling behind the screen to allow for fudging and that cheapening their victory, if that's the way they feel, they should be stoic enough to accept the consequences.