TSR The Origin of Monty Haul

The time is 1975. I'm a substitute teacher and I've learned how to play D&D at Gary Gygax's house. He and his family are wonderful hosts. Every Saturday in warm weather we are playing on his side porch. The group is Gary's son Ernie in 9th grade; some of Ernie's friends, and some of Gary's adult friends including Brian Blume, Gary's partner in TSR.

The time is 1975. I'm a substitute teacher and I've learned how to play D&D at Gary Gygax's house. He and his family are wonderful hosts. Every Saturday in warm weather we are playing on his side porch. The group is Gary's son Ernie in 9th grade; some of Ernie's friends, and some of Gary's adult friends including Brian Blume, Gary's partner in TSR.

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Playing in Gary's game was just like walking into a fantasy movie. He made his Greyhawk city come alive in our minds as we walked its streets. His Greyhawk dungeon; I have to say I have seen literally thousands of dungeons; Gary's beat them all for interesting encounters and fun puzzles. He never consulted his rules, while running a game, except for handing out experience points. The monsters and their powers were written in his dungeon text. I don't know why he didn't write down their experience points as well.

Playing in Gary's game was a primer in learning what not to do by any style of character, in any situation. I burnt my party several times with my incautiously cast fireball. I accidentally bounced a lightning bolt spell and fried Gary's son Ernie. We all made mistakes, but as we played we made less and less mistakes.

Gary's Castle Greyhawk was divided into three parts. There was a dwarf controlled part. That one was always packed with surprising amounts of gold. There was the elf controlled part. That section had shiny new magic items Gary wanted to play test to see if they would break the game. Then there was the middle section. It was deep, dangerous, and we loved going there when we were way too inexperienced. All the best battles happened down there and I can remember every one of them as if they were yesterday.

We all tried lots of ideas during the game. I didn't find out until years later that Terry Kuntz set up a flunky hiring building in Greyhawk. Characters were constantly looking for flunkies to help in the battles. I hired one of those myself in a dwarf and raised him up to sixth level. Later I found out Terry's characters were hired by others and went back and told Terry about places in the dungeon that were worth raiding.

In those early versions of the game there was no thought of story line or major villains to be over come. It was all fight the monsters, defeat the monsters, and grab their treasures. In these sessions Gary learned to hide treasures in unusual places. He learned to do grand things with his dungeon corridors. He was a great one for teleporting players from one level to another and back again. I can remember one time we were searching for a treasure map and we knew where it was hidden. We searched that place from top to bottom and never found it. We came to find out, years later, that the map was written on a shield.

I have a very fond memory of going down with the group into the middle dungeon. We came upon some really warm sections. At one huge iron door we Knocked it open. Gary spent the next ten minutes describing the huge chamber on the other side of the door. We heard about a large red dragon and two small red dragons, there was a fire giant king and several fire giants, there were hell hounds, and in the middle of the area there was a giant fire elemental. Naturally, we slammed the door shut and ran for our lives. However, for the next two game years we talked about that chamber and what it would need in the way of equipment to take it. Years later we walked in that area. We had fire resistant rings on, we used fire resistant scrolls we had researched, we had two dragon kill arrows; we had learned cold spells of several kinds; we had a brazier to control fire elementals, and I had a wondrous staff of power. I'm happy to report we all survived that battle with a big win and the memory is crystal clear to me 40 years later.

In that year I discovered something very interesting. An hour or so before Gary ran his game at his house, his son Ernie and others would run their own dungeons. It is my firm belief that anyone with a bit of creativity soon wants to change roles and become the Dungeon Master. One of those was definitely me.

Eventually I started coming earlier to play in the short games before Gary's game. It wasn't long before I proudly offered to run my dungeon. I freely admit my first effort was poor. I graph papered a couple of dungeon levels much like Gary's. I threw in monsters with no thought of game balance. However, I was wise enough to figure out for low level players they needed to fight low level monsters.

My biggest battle on the first level was with three Bugbears. This was before the Blackmoor supplement came out. Although most of the magical treasures of my dungeon were mostly what Gary had invented I came up with special sashes that gave the wearer martial arts powers. I think I also sprinkled one or two ioun stones in the dungeon. I had just won one of those and learned about others and thought they were grand things.

Anyway, Ernie picked up one of the sashes and an ioun stone and proceeded as a low level character to beat up the Bugbears. After the battle was done and I handed out experience Gary critiqued it by calling me a PRICE IS RIGHT Monty Haul style DM. I gave out too much treasure for the effort.

Slowly, over the next couple of years the term Monty Haul DM became known as not being a good style of play. It was thought if a DM gave out too much treasure the game would quickly become unbalanced.

I wore the name as a badge of honor. I liked the expression on the faces of my players when they found great treasures. As they became quickly powerful, I had no trouble up scaling my dungeons to suit my player's power levels.

What is really funny was that Gary Gygax was clearly a Monty Haul style referee. In his case he had to test the value and danger of his magic items in his game. Things that proved too powerful had to be scaled down.

In this day and age the term Monty Haul referee is unpopular among the larger game companies. I have written products for many of those companies. I have purposely put unusually large treasures in those products because I like the Monty Haul style. I don't get complaints.
 

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Jim Ward

Jim Ward

Drawmij the Wizard

Doug McCrae

Legend
One is a vague suggestion, the other is a clearly defined rule and mechanic.
I'd be surprised to find a single "vague suggestion" in 1e AD&D. It's full of Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots, in full caps when Gary gets really worked up. Contrast with the 'if you decide to do X then bear in mind Y' tone of the advice in 3e.
 

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Sacrosanct

Legend
I'd be surprised to find a single "vague suggestion" in 1e AD&D. It's full of Thou Shalts and Thou Shalt Nots, in full caps when Gary gets really worked up. Contrast with the 'if you decide to do X then bear in mind Y' tone of the advice in 3e.

People keep assuming that, but actually there are tons of vague suggestions in the DMG*. The part he/she quoted that I responded to is one. Saying "try to keep low level PCs fighting lower level monsters." is incredibly vague. It doesn't say how one goes about doing that.

"Well, I have a party of 6 level 1 PCs, so they are low level. So are gray oozes, so I guess that means I can throw that party at a couple of gray oozes and be good!" Or gnolls, or ghouls. Obviously that would result poorly to a party expecting to win an encounter.

Compared to actual encounter building rules, that's pretty vague, and the two cannot be compared


*The preface, the introduction, game aids, stat generation methods, fudging rolls, literally the first few pages alone are full of relatively vague suggestions.
 




Sacrosanct

Legend
By using the monster level system on page 174.

Firstly, those are for random encounters. They aren't for designing actual encounters. Secondly, those are extremely vague rules for a few reasons:

  • it's based on the actual dungeon level of what monsters would live on that level. That's not encounter design. That's dungeon stocking physical levels of a dungeon like the old video games emulated (like Dungeon Hack)
  • HD (monster level) is not necessarily an indicator of monster toughness or how hard it would be against a party. See my example above of the gray ooze. Only 3HD, but punched way higher than that for many reasons. Therefore, the rough guidelines in that book are inherently flawed and were not an actual "encounter building" mechanic.
  • even by those "rules", you could have 1st level PCs fighting dragons and lycanthropes (which show up on table III)


So yeah man, there is no reasonable way a person could argue that 1e had anything resembling encounter building rules. When you look at 1e, and then look at every edition since 3e, they aren't remotely comparable.
 




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