The Paladin killed someone...what to do?

[Numion]

In this case, alleged evil. Noone knows if the halfing was good or evil (or most probably neutral).

Does it really matter? Paladins Code requires him to punish those who harm or threaten innocents. It doesn't discriminate between [Good], [Neutral] or [Evil] things who harm or threaten innocents. So if the Paladin sees someone harming innocents (like the Halfling here) he's obliged to punish them, regardless of their alignment.

 

[Numion]

Maybe because the paladin had already grappled him and made spellcasting next to impossible...or maybe he didn't have the teleport magic at his disposal.

Why not?

Also, he didn't seem to fight back much (or at all) against the paladin's rough interrogation.

Why not?

Obviously he was a Lawful Good plant by the baddies.
Why? To cause the Paladin LOZ3 H15 P0\/\/RZ!

 

[ThirdWizard]

Does it really matter? Paladins Code requires him to punish those who harm or threaten innocents. It doesn't discriminate between [Good], [Neutral] or [Evil] things who harm or threaten innocents. So if the Paladin sees someone harming innocents (like the Halfling here) he's obliged to punish them, regardless of their alignment.

First off, the halfling didn't harm or threaten innocents. He helped others do it, but in all likelihood he had no idea what was going on.

Secondly, punishment does not equal kill. Especially when the guilty party is some non-combatant who seems rather oblivious to the severity of what he's doing.

 

[Numion]

First off, the halfling didn't harm or threaten innocents. He helped others do it, but in all likelihood he had no idea what was going on.

Well, I think pretty clearly that anyone distracting protection is harming the innocents. This wasn't merely looking away when innocents were harmed - he was enabling the evil activity. Consider the Code: would it make sense that it required punishing those who even threaten innocents (but don't do it), but let those off the hook who help others harm innocents?

And in all likelihood he did have idea, and didn't the Paladin already discern as much before this whole thread started?

[/QUOTE]
Secondly, punishment does not equal kill. Especially when the guilty party is some non-combatant who seems rather oblivious to the severity of what he's doing.[/QUOTE]

Sometimes the most dangerous evildoers are those that don't act as triggermen. So being a lousy fighter is no reason for leniency. But you're right, it was a bit on the harsh side of penalties.

 

[Demmero]

Obviously he was a Lawful Good plant by the baddies.
Why? To cause the Paladin LOZ3 H15 P0\/\/RZ!

It's nice to see a DM that runs his villains intelligently. Now while his nemesis is without his special powers (or off atoning, or off at blackguard college, or whatever), the villain and his minions can finish whatever evil plans they have in regards to the paladin's wife. Brilliant!

 

[WhimsyTheFae]

It's nice to see a DM that runs his villains intelligently. Now while his nemesis is without his special powers (or off atoning, or off at blackguard college, or whatever), the villain and his minions can finish whatever evil plans they have in regards to the paladin's wife. Brilliant!

You know, I am beginning to think that the villians had no plans for the wife. I think that their plans were for the paladin all along...

"Okay, Mr. Halflingbate, you go in and talk to Mr. Highenmighty for a while. Don't worry, he's a good humored chap. Whatever you do, don't tell him why you are there and don't let him go back upstairs too soon. We are just going to surprise him with a gift. Yeah, we go way back, nothing to worry about."

*excellent*

 

[Demmero]

Sometimes the most dangerous evildoers are those that don't act as triggermen. So being a lousy fighter is no reason for leniency. But you're right, it was a bit on the harsh side of penalties.

The flip side of that coin:

Sometimes the most dangerous do-gooders ar those that don't act within the code of law of their society (or act outside the tenets of the god they claim to serve). So being a prestigious paladin is no reason for leniency. Heironeous should strip this guy of his paladin powers, though that's a bit on the harsh side of penalties.

 

[Numion]

It's nice to see a DM that runs his villains intelligently. Now while his nemesis is without his special powers (or off atoning, or off at blackguard college, or whatever), the villain and his minions can finish whatever evil plans they have in regards to the paladin's wife. Brilliant!

But .. but, that would make Heironeous the unwitting pawn of the evil dudes . Don't you think he's a bit more better than that?

And your plan, while I noticed the smiley, smacks of trickery on the DMs part. Just too contrived to get a Halfling succesfully dupe a Paladin while at the same time remain totally unwitting pawn. Besides the Halfling admitted guilt which made it necesasry for the Paladin to invoke section 3b of his Code: punish those who harm or threaten to harm innocents

 

[Demmero]

You know, I am beginning to think that the villians had no plans for the wife. I think that their plans were for the paladin all along...

Very possible. Me, I'm leaning more towards thinking that this is a paladin trap or at least a test set up by the DM. (Not that I'm wholly for or against such scenarios; it usually depends on the subtlety or lack thereof IMO).

And this might be brilliantly subtle. Maybe the intruders' plan was exactly what we've seen them do: create a distraction, sneak in, torment the wife a bit (although the OP said they "assaulted" her; it'd be nice to know exactly what they did while the paladin was otherwise occupied), and get out.

It's possible they intended to cause her no serious harm or even no harm at all. Maybe they were sending a message to the paladin: "We know where you live!"...or maybe their plan was more insidious. Maybe their plan was to let the paladin think about all the things that might've happened to his wife when he wasn't around to protect her.

I mean...just take a look at this thread for examples. There have been posters who said the wife was kidnapped or hacked up...despite the OP saying that she was apparently unharmed. Another poster suggested that maybe the wife had been replaced by a succubus, or that the child she carried had somehow been transformed into a demonspawn.

Maybe that was the whole plan...to get the paladin's imagination going as to what could have happened, not necessarily what actually did happen.

Who knows...such thoughts might torment the paladin enough to make him snap and do something that earns him the disfavor of his god...say, snapping the neck of a subdued captive, for example.

"Okay, Mr. Halflingbate, you go in and talk to Mr. Highenmighty for a while. Don't worry, he's a good humored chap. Whatever you do, don't tell him why you are there and don't let him go back upstairs too soon. We are just going to surprise him with a gift. Yeah, we go way back, nothing to worry about."

*excellent*

Well, when the halfling hems and haws about why he's come knocking at the paladin's house, he confesses some knowledge that an assault is going on inside while the paladin's preoccupied, so he's no innocent. We're talking degrees of guilt here. Maybe he's a full-fledged co-conspirator; or maybe he's a generally nice guy with some gambling debts to the wrong people and has a pretty good idea of what's going on inside, as these people often hurt others in their line of business. (But we don't know for certain that the halfling knows the guy he's distracting is a paladin or that the baddies' real target is a pregnant woman.)

 

[Demmero]

But .. but, that would make Heironeous the unwitting pawn of the evil dudes . Don't you think he's a bit more better than that?

I'm not certain that I get what you're saying. I think it's something along the lines of "Isn't an overzealous paladin follower better than no follower at all?" Depends. If Heironeous wants to risk becoming known as "Heironeous Halfling-Killer" or doesn't mind the change in portfolio from 'justice' to 'vigilante justice,' he could look away and let the paladin go on doing these things in his name, sure. I just don't happen to believe he would.

And your plan, while I noticed the smiley, smacks of trickery on the DMs part. Just too contrived to get a Halfling succesfully dupe a Paladin while at the same time remain totally unwitting pawn. Besides the Halfling admitted guilt which made it necesasry for the Paladin to invoke section 3b of his Code: punish those who harm or threaten to harm innocents

DMs live to trick PCs, be they paladins or otherwise. The paladin code is part of the paladin class; I don't think that an occasional test or two makes a DM a bad one.

And I've just addressed some of my beliefs about the halfling's innocence or lack thereof in this case. For me, one of the big sticking points in this thread is justice (or the lack thereof). The paladin's god is big on justice; the OP said that the city this occurred in has its own justice system that the paladin was beholden to; and even in the unlikely event that this paladin is allowed to mete out justice--is the punishment he deal equal to the severity of the crime? And more importantly, how does he go about making that determination? (Answer: without even bothering to use his god-given Detect Evil power on the culprit and by doing a minimal amount of investigation.)

Besides the Halfling admitted guilt which made it necesasry for the Paladin to invoke section 3b of his Code: punish those who harm or threaten to harm innocents

Amen. The paladin invoked his personal code, not the code of law in the city, not the code of his god, not even some overgeneralized paladin's code. He acted outside of church and law and should be subject to penalties for his actions.