The paladin needs help with some bloody situation

[Tonguez]

Originally posted by NoOneofConsequence


Not to get all "biblical on your @$$" but this is in fact not what the biblical reference means at all. What it means is that if you lost an eye then you can't take more than an eye in retribution, if you lost a tooth, then all you can take is a tooth. It's a principle of limitation, not an endorsement of revenge as a system of justice.


A life for a life is a clear enough principle INCLUDED under this principle - IMHO generally when the term Marauder is used murder and rapine is probably a given. These 'villains' were not mere Bandits or Robbers, they were 'Marauders'

If they have killed then they deserve death under the above principle.


Fair enough, but how do you stop the "He detected as evil, so I slew him." mentality IYC? And how do you stop rogue paladins? Or fighters who just claim to be paladins? In essence, if paladins are judge and executioners, who judges the judges?


The issue of who Judges the Judges is the whole point of why Religious structures were established, and the idea of Rogue Paladins could be a great Plothook. Besides in a DnD world with gods actively involved a Paladins actions are overseen by a diety who expects a certain degree of compliance.

As to the Detect Evil spell it clearly states that it detects Evil Creatures (and evil undead, elementals, outsiders, magic and priests of evil gods) and NOT evil alignments. As such casting the spell can NOT tell you that the rogue is Neutral Evil unless that Rogue is also an Evil Creature

The only creatures spefically given an EVIL subtype in the MM, and thus identifiable by the Detect Evil spell are:

Barghest and Greater Barghest,
Devil(s) -Barbazu, Cornugon, Erinyes, Gelugon, Hamatula, Hellcat, Imp, Kyton, Lemure, Osyluth, Pit Fiend,
Genie, Efreeti
Half-Fiend/Half-Medusa
Hell Hound
Howler
Night Hag
Nightmare
Rakshasa
Shadow Mastiff
Vargouille
Xill
Yeth Hound

By and large, historically, societies like to have criminals "brought to justice" so that they can "show justice being done", even when the final punishment ends up being much more brutal than just hunting them down and killing them.

Sometimes yes. But I'd argue in this case (and imho it would be more common in a DnD type world full of roving adventurers and fiendish undead) that because the Marauders are known to be guilty of the crimes then the local authorities have already past judgement and issued a call to Justice DEAD or ALIVE which Paladins in particular are licenced to enforce with 'Extreme Prejudice'.

But thats all just IMHO

 

[mmadsen]

By and large, historically, societies like to have criminals "brought to justice" so that they can "show justice being done", even when the final punishment ends up being much more brutal than just hunting them down and killing them.

Even through much of the 20th centure, American police hunted down and killed known criminals -- Bonnie and Clyde, John Dillinger, etc.

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

As a corrollary to my previous post - I should have made note that there is such a thing as "frontier justice" which amounts to a "hunt it down and kill it attitude". It's always possible for a paladin to be a part of such a philosophy.

I don't want to get into a pointless (and tangential) debate on justice and law in the Hebrew scriptures, so I think it best that we agree to disagree Tonguez. However, your point about detecting creatures rather than alignments is well taken. This is not how the rules used to read, and the new specifics are much less open to abuse by "lazy" players.

mmadsen: even in the famous cases of Dillinger et al, killing the criminal without trial occurred because the criminal was unable to be arrested. They weren't executed on the spot by police officers who had already arrested them. That's the difference that I trying to point to.