The poor illusionist...

[Mouseferatu]

Am I the only one starting to think that illusionists are growing less and less effective with each successive iteration?

When they began, they were a separate core class, with their own spell list. Now, much as I loved that, I understand why the move was made to specialist wizards of all stripes. I miss the old guy, but I can live without him.

But let's look at illusions as they stand now. IIRC, they're rather easier to save against now than they used to be. (I think actual interaction, as opposed to close study, was required before you'd be allowed to disbelieve in older editions.) What really makes me think, though, is Spellcraft. I can't believe this didn't occur to me until a friend pointed it out recently, but if a halfway decent caster is watching an illusionist, he's going to disbelieve every time. Why? Because a Spellcraft check allows you to identify the spell being cast--so the observers are going to know the illusionist is casting, well, an illusion. No other type of spell can be so effectively ruined by a simple skill check. Sure, wise illusionists are going to try to cast from concealment, but this isn't always possible, and frankly, it shouldn't be necessary. I've actually been tempted to houserule that illusion spells are harder to ID than others because the somatic components are designed to mimic other spells, but that seems a bit clunky to me.

I dunno. I don't have an actual conclusive point to this, except to say that I'd really like to see something done to make the illusionist a bit more viable for actual use. Any of you who have direct experience with them, please, by all means, share. Tell me how you got around these issues, or if they simply didn't prove to be issues at all.

(For the record, I want to point out that I'm not looking at making them "the kewlest thing evar." I like the fact that illusionists have to be creative, and don't have a lot of means of directly damaging a foe. I just wish they stood up in effectiveness to the other specialists, and I just don't see how they can.)

And hey, if anyone's recreated the actual 1st edition separate illusionist class for 3E, feel free to link to that, too. I'd love to have it.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

True seeing is the nail in the coffin.

 

[Bigwilly]

Illusionists getting shorter and shorter end of the stick

One of my players also feels that illusionists are getting increasingly nerfed. I don't think he's ever tactically used the illusion class of spells and in 3.5 even his defensive/utility spells got nerfed - all the invisibility spell durations have been majorly reduced - with greater invisibilty now only rounds/level. It seems if you are not an evoker you might as well not be a mage anymore.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I agree to a point. Illusions are alot less effective than in previous editions. I still use them on occasion against enemies I think they will work againts like big dumb monsters hordes or giants. It is kind of lame that a Spellcraft check or an active Arcane Sight pretty much eliminates the effectiveness of an illusion.

 

[Pbartender]

Wow...

My campaign's most hated and most effective villians have been an Illusionist, an Enchanter and a Necromancer. The trick is remembering that these fellows excel at the indirect confrontation. If all goes well, the players shouldn't know that they've had a run-in with any of these specialist wizards until long after the bad guy has gotten away.

 

[MerricB]

I think the role of the 1E Illusionist has been superceded by that of the 3.5E Bard.

I made a d20 System variant Illusionist, and when I look at it now it's very 3.5E Bard like.

Cheers!

 

[Zappo]

Considering that we are talking about an illusionist... I'd say that if your enemy is in the condition of making a Spellcraft check, you have done something wrong already. An illusionist should never be where you think he is, and if he is he should never look like what he is. Be invisible, be in concealment, be somewhere else. And never assume that you can live on illusions only; there are other schools for you, too.

 

[Particle_Man]

Just keep moving...nothing to see here...

 

[Particle_Man]

Am I the only one starting to think that illusionists are growing less and less effective with each successive iteration?

When they began, they were a separate core class, with their own spell list.

I agree. And note that epic spot checks at a certain level automatically see through certain types of illusions. Sigh.

Maybe just ban the will save component unless the person has "incontrovertable proof", as well as banning the use of Spellcraft checks, true seeing, epic spot checks, arcane sight, etc...

 

[Vrecknidj]

There are potentially other ways around thinks like Spellcraft, epic-level Spot checks, and even true seeing. First, there are the obvious points others have made (like don't be there to begin with, have access to other spells, use invisibility, etc.) that will thwart one or another of these limitations.

As far as the Spellcraft check goes, there's little in the core rules that helps out here, other than making it hard for the other person to see what the illusionist is doing. I suppose some allies, cover, or concealment would do the trick. But, there are other ways too. A canny player could whip up a feat and present it to the DM--it's always worth a try. And, if the illusionist is a wizard (and not a sorcerer who happens to take mostly illusion spells), then the illusionist could work on some spells that, when the are in effect, hamper someone else's ability to use Spellcraft against them (there are spells that thwart alignment-detecting spells, I don't see why there couldn't be spells that prevented Spellcraft from working so well).

As to the epic-level Spot check . . . . If the person making the Spot check is 21+ level, the the illusionist should be too. By that level, the same things that worked in the previous paragraph should be working here. A spell that imposes a -40 to the Spot checks of others sounds kinda epic-ish. I don't see why an illusionist of 21+ level couldn't create a vest or something that makes Spot checks against him much less effective.

True Seeing is still just a spell. If you're an illusionist you've got to be ready for your enemies to have access to this. Dispel magic of the right strength could do the trick. Having a beholder for an ally is probably too much to ask, but that would work. Having an anti-magic field spell on a familiar that happens to be within 10' of your enemy with true seeing seems possible.

Dave