the power of a good illustration

[phindar]

So because you think cha doesn't have anything to do with looks, Wizards may ignore their own rules?

What rules?

Aside from the humor value of linking a sorcerer's spells to being really, really good looking, or gods giving more undead slaying power to hot priests, where does this come up? If I were going to run a campaign based on the move Zoolander-- and I'm not saying that I will or I won't-- then I'd link physical attractiveness to CHA. Otherwise, it makes slightly less sense than linking Strength to the length of a character's hair. (At least their is some mythological basis for that one.)

 

[Sammael]

What about Mialee?

What about her?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compmage_gallery/100504.jpg

 

[MarkB]

What about her?

http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/compmage_gallery/100504.jpg

Hmm. Compare and contrast...

Yeah, I'm thinking she's had some work done. They're definitely rounder and more aesthetically pleasing in the later image.

I wonder what sort of magic it requires to perform cheekbone surgery like that?

 

[MadMaxim]

I'd say any of the cover illustrations by Wayne Reynolds on the Eberron sourcebooks make me want to run that exact scene in the game. I like his illustrations a whole lot.

 

[phindar]

Yeah, I'm thinking she's had some work done. They're definitely rounder and more aesthetically pleasing in the later image.

You're talking about her... cheekbones, I take it?

Look at her in this one:

Jeez, thank you Stacker II. Somebody should check the iconic characters for performance enhancers. (Or is that just the Amulet of Health +4?)

 

[Darth Shoju]

You're talking about her... cheekbones, I take it?

Look at her in this one:


Jeez, thank you Stacker II. Somebody should check the iconic characters for performance enhancers. (Or is that just the Amulet of Health +4?)

I don't think that is Mialee. At any rate that is one of my favourite pieces of 3ed art.

My favourite artists are:

Lockwood
Reynolds
O'Connor
Pozas

 

[Hypersmurf]

What rules?

John Q. Mayhem already quoted the definition of Charisma from the SRD:
"Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness."

It's right there in your PHB on p9.

-Hyp.

 

[phindar]

I know, in fact if you go back and read my original post, I specifically called out the linking of physical attractiveness to CHA was lazy thinking on the part of game designers. The only systems I can think of off the top of my head that don't link them are Shadowrun (3e), and the Vampire/Werewolf family of White Wolf games (which has an Appearance stat). And AD&D, which had Comeliness. My point is that linking CHA to beauty is a dumb idea, not that its not in the book. (For whatever reason, not enough love as a child or something, looking at whether or not CHA and beauty are linked is one of the first things I do when reading a system. Its a pet peeve.)

Now, I don't use the phrase "dumb idea" lightly or carelessly. What I mean by that is 1) It Doesn't Do Anything (there's really no reason why a CHA 22 sorcerer can't be butt-ugly), and 2) It creates the problem of implying that characters get mechanical benefits (bonus spells, extra turn attempts, more lay on hands points) for being prettier. That is to say, if two characters are equally persausive, magnetic and all the other things CHA does, but one is prettier than the other, he will have a higher CHA and get more Sor spells per day. As I say, it works for Zoolander d20. For D&D, not so much.

By the by, this guy gets a +6 bonus to CHA:

Nobody likes calamari that much. (Also, I figured to keep this marginally on topic, I should post a graphic.)

 

[Aaron L]

I know, in fact if you go back and read my original post, I specifically called out the linking of physical attractiveness to CHA was lazy thinking on the part of game designers. The only systems I can think of off the top of my head that don't link them are Shadowrun (3e), and the Vampire/Werewolf family of White Wolf games (which has an Appearance stat). And AD&D, which had Comeliness. My point is that linking CHA to beauty is a dumb idea, not that its not in the book. (For whatever reason, not enough love as a child or something, looking at whether or not CHA and beauty are linked is one of the first things I do when reading a system. Its a pet peeve.)

Now, I don't use the phrase "dumb idea" lightly or carelessly. What I mean by that is 1) It Doesn't Do Anything (there's really no reason why a CHA 22 sorcerer can't be butt-ugly), and 2) It creates the problem of implying that characters get mechanical benefits (bonus spells, extra turn attempts, more lay on hands points) for being prettier. That is to say, if two characters are equally persausive, magnetic and all the other things CHA does, but one is prettier than the other, he will have a higher CHA and get more Sor spells per day. As I say, it works for Zoolander d20. For D&D, not so much.

By the by, this guy gets a +6 bonus to CHA:

Nobody likes calamari that much. (Also, I figured to keep this marginally on topic, I should post a graphic.)

This is a fantasy game. One does not have a lot of Charisma because one is pretty, one is pretty because one has a lot of Charisma. The force of personality shining through and being reflected in the flesh. The favor of the gods and mystical forces of the universe shining their favor down upon the individual in the form of good looks. It goes back to the original definition of Charisma as being an element of divine or mystical favor, which 3E has done an admirable job of portraying. (Sorcerer spellcasting, Use Magic Device, etc.)

You react as if the description of Charisma is saying that it ONLY represents physical attractiveness, when it is saying that it merely encompasses it as an element. You can easily make a horridly ugly character with a 22 Charisma. Being attractive should be viewed as an expression of a characters Charisma, not a cause of it, and not even a necessary component; merely a possible one.


A highly Charismatic character could be ugly enough to make rocks roll out of his way, but have such force of personality to crush those same rocks with his glare (your hypothetical butt ugly CHA 22 Sorcerer.) Or could be shy and unassuming, but stunningly beautiful (a reflection of divine favor.)

Charisma implies force of personality and looks, and the ability to use them. Using your physical appearance, beauty or ugliness, to your advantage is Charisma. A mysterious, ugly, scar covered stranger with an air of power about him is certainly Charismatic (and I have played such a character since 1E.)


The same way that Dexterity is an average of hand eye coordination, physical agility, and reflexes (physical characteristics) as well as reaction speed and balance (mental characteristics) Charisma is an average of a characters attractiveness, force of personality, charm, leadership quality, and inborn mystical potential.

Divesting Charisma of it's physical aspects is hardly called for, as it's been this way since the VERY BEGINNING of roleplaying games, as one of the ORIGINAL codified ability scores, and I assure you that Mr Gygax knew full well all of the meanings of the word (and I'd go so far as to say his use of the word in D&D has had an effect on the way the word is commonly used today.)

Now, the separate Comeliness characteristic in Unearthed Arcana is something I can't quite explain, and we should ask Gary about it in his Q&A thread. I'm thinking he wanted to reduce Charisma to it's purely mystical/divine favor origins (ala Paladins requirement of a 17 CHA.)

But even then, you'll note that Charisma gave bonuses and penalties to ones Comeliness, so they were still connected.

 

[MarkB]

You're talking about her... cheekbones, I take it?

Absolutely.

Look at her in this one:

Jeez, thank you Stacker II. Somebody should check the iconic characters for performance enhancers. (Or is that just the Amulet of Health +4?)

I agree with Darth Shoujo - I don't see any of those characters as Mialee. The girl kicking the bugbear in the face has horns, and the spellcaster in the foreground is blonde, and I just don't see Mialee as someone who'd bleach.

That is an excellent piece of artwork, though. I have it as my desktop background.