The Power of Friendship!

[N0Man]

Silly: In an arcana check to determine the precise location, duration, and creator of a portal, a level 20 fighter with absolutley 0 training in portals or arcana in general automatically helps the skill check.

Ever watch the show Eureeka? It's a lot like when the non-science savvy Sheriff encounters some high-tech science concept, comes up with a really crude theory of very limited understanding, and then one of the brilliant scientists (usually Henry) lights up spouts off some pseudo science theory filled with techno babble idea that was inspired by the sheriff's statement.

Or maybe it's like Buffy and the Vampire, where the librarian Giles is searching through his tomes of knowledge, trying to find information on some demon, and Xanders thumbs through some page and find the entry by random chance.

Fighter: "Hey, is this that magical dowizee thing you were looking up?"

Or maybe it's something more mundane...

Fighter: "Is there anything I can do to help?"

Wizard: "Help!? Did you spend a decade in apprenticeship, frequently being nothing more than a housekeeper, looking after some miserable curmudgeon conjurer in order to glean the occasional arcane secrets he was willing to dispense!? I didn't think so! I sincerely doubt you are equipped with the knowledge to help me! Further more... Ah... gods, this sun is so bright! It is making it difficult for these old eyes to see!"

Fighter: "Here, better?" *Shades the wizards eyes with the shadow of his shield*

Wizard: "Why... as a matter of fact, that actually is a little better... Oh... this passage, I almost missed it... I think I've done it! Ah-ha! See, I told you I could do it on my own"

Maybe you just need the right narrative. ;-)

 

[DracoSuave]

We disagree.... oh well.

1) Fighters are not stupid, and have the capacity to learn.
2) Fighters, and other adventurers, base a lot of their livelihood on the ability to survive incredible, almost impossible odds.
3) Knowledge of the things you deal with on a regular basis is important for that survival.
4) Even if that knowledge didn't come before experiencing adventure, it is ludicrous to thing said fighter, with the capacity to learn, could not -possibly- pick up the working bits and pieces of how the things he encounters during his -very- dangerous work actually works.

So, do you -honestly- believe that someone who makes a living fighting magical creatures of immense power would not pick up a few bits and piece of how magic actually works on some rudimentary level? That said Fighter, after a long long long time of being told by the wizards 'Portals work this way' that eventually the Fighter won't be able to go 'Portals work this way' and be right?

A real example: Are you able to go to work and not learn some aspect of the roles of other coworkers you deal with and have to work with in order to do your job?

 

[Ryujin]

Silly: In an arcana check to determine the precise location, duration, and creator of a portal, a level 20 fighter with absolutley 0 training in portals or arcana in general automatically helps the skill check.

Unless the use of the skill in question by the primary character requires him to be skilled in Arcana, as I would say is the case here, in which case I would have no problem saying that you can't assist that character unless you also have skill in Arcana.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Yes because anyone trained in a skill above level 10 automatically succeeds. Anyone level 20 or above automatically succeeds.

Who's automatically succeeding? All that this person is doing is giving an ally a +2 to their roll. That ally still needs to succeed as normal. A level 1 character can automatically succeed at handing an ally a potion. What's so terrible about a level 10 or (god forbid) 20 character automatically succeeding at giving an ally a +2 bonus to a skill check?

Automatically succeeding at something so easily is silly in my opinion.

A level 8 character with 10 strength automatically succeeds at climbing a rope. Out-of-combat, a level 1 character (when taking 10) automatically succeeds at climbing the same rope. Are you saying that doing incredibly easy tasks (such as aiding in a skill check) should be difficult even when you're a heroic character capable of slaying dragons and casting magic spells? That, in my opinion, is silly.

 

[Flipguarder]

Hey look a bunch of people disagree with me!

So maybe I shouldn't have used the word silly. Yes, it does make sense that a fighter would gain some knowledge in his travels and adventures. Yes, I suppose that is what accounts for the 1/2 level bonus in most situations.

However, I still like the idea of chance over auto-success. Personally it makes more sense that someone attempting to do something, could be hindered, or helped by a person chiming in with their 2 cents on the situation, no matter how much knowledge the helper might have in the situation. So in the end, it's either at a certain level all unhindered skill checks have a +8 to them due to my party having 5 people, or I just work in the same level of chance at every level.

I don't see anything about my reasoning or my position that's too ridiculous.

 

[KKDragonLord]

This, as with most silly issues of 4e would require a house ruling to fit your tastes. (and my own as well).

How about:
"Aid another DC gets higher for extremely difficult tasks by one point for every point the task is above DC 30".

That way to aid in a DC35 check, it would require a result of 15.

You could adjust the DC as you see fit, like: DC25 check requires 15.
or a 2 to 1 progression over 20 such as: DC30 requires DC 15, DC40 requires 20.

 

[Flipguarder]

This, as with most silly issues of 4e would require a house ruling to fit your tastes. (and my own as well).

How about:
"Aid another DC gets higher for extremely difficult tasks by one point for every point the task is above DC 30".

That way to aid in a DC35 check, it would require a result of 15.

You could adjust the DC as you see fit, like: DC25 check requires 15.
or a 2 to 1 progression over 20 such as: DC30 requires DC 15, DC40 requires 20.

heh, just reread it and apparently you are right. My houserule "roll a d20, if it's 10 or above, you assist."

 

[DracoSuave]

Or just go 'Hey, they could assist' and adjust your challenges to compensate for their ever increasing prowess.

Yeah, they can autoclimb a rope. But they can't autoclimb a wall of smooth glass with water cascading down it.

That's the difference between heroic tier and epic tier. Epic characters -do- get to trivialize certain actions as automatic successes. They're -that- good.

I mean if Monsters get more epic, why not skill rolls?

UNRELATED ASIDE: Flipguarder, this has been bugging me... is that avatar from Shining Force?

 

[Starfox]

What I do is I apply the +5 DC modifier for parqagon level and the +10 DC modifier for Epic level to assist DCs.

 

[Flipguarder]

UNRELATED ASIDE: Flipguarder, this has been bugging me... is that avatar from Shining Force?

Yes, none other then the Zeon the Devil King.