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The Power of Prayer

What happens next? See below, choosing the option that most appeals to you.


I think it depends on his roleplaying, and on plot. If you didn't intend for that character to die, then leave it up to the player. if they roleplay a really good prayer, then don't even roll to stabilize, just have her get better. another option is to have the PC be inspired to do a certain thing which will save her life(special way of applying bandages or something), or let the dice decide for the immediate future, and if she "dies" by the rules then have her simply be in a deep sleep/ coma whatever and wake up when he takes her body out of the dungeon, back to the village, after being cared by local healer, etc. granted this is all assuming excellent roleplaying on the part of the player, if the Rping turns out not so good then let the dice decide, or give a small bonus to the roll if the rping is mediocre.

Also I don't understand why you need a cleric/magic to stabilize someone who is injured. shouldn't every adventurer have some first aid? that's the whole point of first aid, not to heal anything, but to stop the bleeding, bring them out of shock, or in other words stabilize someone.
 

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I immediately voted "Nothing." The guy is a fighter, not a cleric. That is my knee-jerk response.

But with thought, the response doesn't change. It is simply a single case/scenario that requires a single interpretation...and is far too singular: playstyle preference, campaign world specifications, player [and table as a whole] expectations...it's all very setting/table-to-table dependent for there to be "an" answer.

In my campaign world, the gods are highly removed/restricted, except to clerics and paladins [and other divine-dependent classes], by [out of game] design and [in game] divine decree. Interfering in such a way to someone not a cleric/paladin would be a cosmic "no-no" for the deity.

That is not to say they couldn't...just that they aren't supposed to.

Mystical/spiritual stuff like this, I tend to try to play "mysterious."

Maybe she lives (with or without a legitimate die roll)...was that an answer to the pray? Maybe. Maybe not. That's up to the players to role-play their characters' perceptions accordingly.

Maybe I fiat that a cleric (perhaps of some other deity, just to stir the pot) shows up...was that answering the prayer? Maybe. Maybe not. If it wasn't a cleric of Pelor...what's that do to the fighter's faith?

Maybe the player of the wife has expressed some dissatisfaction or boredom with their character and wants to play something else...so she dies.

Maybe the player of the wife loves their character/doesn't want to die...it's just been the luck/roll of the dice...in which case, I am likely to fudge the stabilization.

Maybe the player of the fighter has expressed some desire to move/grow into a more clerical or paladinic role...so she lives...and/but he's now a 1st level cleric (though more likely I'd probably handwave him -he's 6th level?- so maybe a 3rd level paladin since he's already got the fighter thing down).

Maybe a particular game uses the 1e-style divine intervention rule "Gimme a percentage roll. We'll see what happens..." Though, in my experience, players are more interested in repeatedly shouting the names of demonlords or archdevils to see if they show up. Once, the roll actually WAS 1% and *poof* there was Orcus. What'cha gonna do now, big mouth?! I believe everyone was rolling up new characters the following week.

Maybe the players have worked out this new direction to roleplay the fighter, to be a brooding/grief stricken atheist or a loss of and subsequent restoration/return-to-faith sorta story...so she dies. The fighter curses his foolish notions, and the gods, scoffing at clerics and any religious persons he encounters...until...

Maybe, as many have stated, the gods are a lot more active in a particular world, so an angel shows up...or the deity themselves...or the fighter passes out from his exhaustion/grief in the aftermath of battle, has a vision of the deity showing up, and when he 'awakens", the wife is alive...or the vision is of archons (valkerie or anything else) coming to take his wife's soul away.

Maybe she dies. He's distraught for a short time but there's a Conan moment: when the fighter finds himself in dire straights and the wife's "soul" shows up at just the right time/a crucial moment to help him. Was that an act of the deity? Maybe. Maybe not.

Any or all of these things can change the outcome.

As presented...good roleplaying and all...he's playing his character the way he wants...not to "cash in a favor" at some point. He's not a cleric. No divine magic for him.
 

The wife stabilises. But she stabilises pretty much regardless of the prayer - character death is, frankly, a PITA, so we only roll Heal checks to stabilise characters if done in the heat of combat. Outside of combat, if you want to stabilise a character, you just say so.
 

Good roleplaying should always be rewarded.
Well, that's debatable. Some would say roleplaying is its own reward. If the player has to experience the agony of losing this important character, that may be very satisfying for someone who is relatively serious about the roleplaying aspect, a method actor type.

But if you want to reward the player's investment in the game by giving him a better outcome than the rules dictate, that's certainly your prerogative. And it probably is successful on the level you intend: rewarding behavior tends to increase its recurrence. For some people this type of "DM metagaming" is de rigeur, and it works. I'm probably one of those people. To certain others, its probably anathema.

This thread has made me realize what a good DM I must be.
Um, okay. I don't follow.

The first point I'd make is that the character who is dying is a PC. So that character's player has a lot more to do with how I'd react to the situation than the piety of the character's in-game husband.

If the player is going to be upset with their character's death, I'd probably fudge a situation where the character doesn't die.
I guess that would be the sentimentality I posited. I made it a PC because I figured if I didn't a lot of people would say they didn't care whether some NPC died. I don't think that the death and dying section of the rules says anything about changing the outcomes based on how important the character is or what the emotional consequences of death would be.

But that's why we have DMs that aren't bound by those rules, I guess.
 

Celebrim said:
Everyone in my world, from the hero the dirt farmer can expect divine intervention - for or against them - at least once in their life, and often several times

Sounds like meddling gods is a thing for you! I typically prefer a game where the gods are more distant. Meeting a god is like streets ahead of meeting the emperor, which is greater than meeting the king, which is greater than meeting the local baron, which is greater than meeting the mayor of your village, which is maybe something 1st level characters can do, if he's not too busy.

That might change, depending on the setting's other trappings, but generally if the mayor ain't gonna chip in to save somebody, sure as shoot a GOD ain't gonna do it.
 

Look, lets change the scenario a bit. Instead of a level 6 fighter, he's a 0-level NPC.

Does that change your answer?

It doesn't for me.
It depends on what the issue is. If we're talking about whether a noncleric can use divine power, it doesn't matter. If we're asking whether the deity cares, it might or might not.

I suspect for me it would matter. I see deities as being very involved, and having reasons for the things they do. An accomplished worshipper is more worthy of attention than some random guy of the street.

Out of character, the fighter's player made a choice NOT to play a healer. Presumably, not being able to heal his character's dying wife was a consequence of that choice the player was willing to live with. In battle with an orc or old in bed, sooner or later, she was going to die. As a fighter, you accept that you can't do much about that. Why would I rob him the chance to play his character as he develops into a grieving widower who perhaps questions his loyalty to a god who would allow such a thing to happen? That's a juicy character conflict, right there!
Well, some people are softies. They don't want to play a game where bad stuff happens.

She dies. Characters die. Adventurers die. Being a married adventuring couple is probably signing up to be widowed in the near future -- it's a dangerous profession.
Well, in some people's games, characters don't die (PCs, anyway). "Plot immunity" is a pretty common conceit.

The most recent example of this philosophy being [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] who seems to have a vested interest in PCs not dying.
 
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Sounds like meddling gods is a thing for you!

Among other things. My take on this is inspired in large part by Greek and Hindu myth. Odysseus is always getting messed with by the gods. Intervening on the PCs behalf is the positive side of that, but it gives me an excuse for putting the characters in epic situations.

Another important aspect of this which you haven't observed is that I took the choice out of my hands and gave the player a fortune roll to resolve the outcome. I still have some leeway to meddle, but if you come up snakes eyes (or some other low score) then no divine intervention for you - your god wasn't looking in your direction, your god didnt' think the request was worthy, or whatever. By dicing for the outcome, even if the chance of sucess is remote (most of the time, you need to roll 'box cars' to get divine aid even in favorable circumstances), I can maintain my nuetrality as a referee.

I also feel I have to digress a little bit into real world religion and its applicability to D&D campaign setting. Most people's take on D&D religion is what I call 'post-Christian'; that is, it is informed by a generic Judeo-Christian world view, but it in fact doesn't agree with actual Christian theology. It's a superficial take on it that you might have if you'd been to Sunday school when you were six or by osmosis from the general culture, but weren't yourself pious. Of course, you've every right to impose on the fantasy world any take on religion you prefer - generic post Judeo-Christian is as 'right' as Greek or Hindu in a sense - but from my part it does involve imposing some ideas that seem really odd to me in the context. Some examples:

1) Clerics are powered by their 'faith' or divine magic is powered by 'belief'. Leaving aside that this is probably not the sense that Faith is used in actual Christian theology, it seems a strange thing to impose on a polytheistic world particularly when it is in stark contrast with the mechanics of the game. Clerics don't need faith in D&D. The have no faith scores. They cast spells which are granted to them by divine powers quite apart from any faith. They arent' miracle workers, but spell casters. Indeed, most real world religious systems do not stress anything about the importance of faith, and instead put the emphasis on ritual and regulation and what are in effect economic transactions with the gods - sacrifices made in exchange for divine favor. In a sense, the shallow sort of definition of 'faith' in common usage today - "Does God exist?" - is not only not a Christian concept, but seems wholly irrelevant to and unsuited to most D&D worlds with their spellcasting priesthoods.
2) One of the strangest things to me is the notion that the Cleric is some sort of 'D&Dism'. In truth, it's the Wizard that is the D&Dism. If you look at real world magical systems, almost all of them would in D&D fall into the sphere of divine magic. Almost all real world 'wizards' up until very near the end of the 19th century when magical systems based on science (or rather psuedo-science) started appearing are best classified in D&D terms as clerics. Almost most no historical magician believed that he himself works the magic, but instead believes that he influences some divine power or spirit into performing magic on his behalf. Almost no historical magical tradition believed it could perform the sort of flashy magic most closely associated with the D&D Wizard. Instead, the spell list would look a lot like some subset of the clerical list. If I was trying to recreate the world of antiquity as the ancients beleived it worked, it would be the Wizard I'd ban as a class, and all 'wizards' would be clerics of some sort.
3) In the D&D sense, Christianity has no clerics. The last Christian clerical tradition in the D&D sense died out with the Catholic counter-reformation in the 16th century. Christianity used to have Theurgists who cast spells and this used to be a somewhat approved method of interacting with the divine, but no longer. Instead of spellcasters, Christianity only believes in divine intervention now - miracles worked on behalf of the faithful often regardless of their clerigical caste.
4) In polytheism, it's really unusual to only worship a single diety nor is worshiping a variaty of gods generally seen requiring you to conform to a particular one or a betrayal of others. Yet it is a truism of D&D that just about every character has a single patron diety. It's polytheism, but its a polytheism where every diety is like a jealous Judeo-Christian God.
5) Christianity postulates a God which though active prefers not to be seen in the world except by the faithful. We could argue elsewhere over whether that is because such postulate is necessary in a world where God doesn't actually exist, or whether its because God is actually nicer than the meddling Greek gods with their acts of hubris and displays of power and wrath, but which ever our take it seems really strange to imagine a D&D setting with a comparitively remote pantheon of Gods given that every 30th person seems to be a divine spellcaster getting spells from some divine intermediary and very much openly messing in the course of history. We've got a bunch of post Judeo-Christian gods of still small voices who give every village priest in a dirt floored chapel spells with which to boom their power.

I bring this up, because EnWorld's prohibition against real world religious statements often seems to me to be broached by statements of D&D "theology" that intersect with points like the above in cases where the writer is voicing unreflected on "common sense".... that actually has a basis in real world religion. It's hard for me to not bring up real world religion, when I get in to threads where everyone is swimming in a broth of unstated but assumed religious notions. This often occurs for me in threads that aren't as overtly on religious topics as this one. For example, threads where the poster wants to ban clerics as 'unrealistic', it's hard for me to avoid the fact that the poster believes that only because the religion he has a passing familiarity with banned D&D style clerics, and the Wizard he's familiar with from video games and the like is actually the D&D wizard and not Cabalism and Hermeticism (not that that is entirely a bad thing).

Anyway, I don't actually want to argue anything about real world religion, I'm just getting tired of not being able to point to the gorilla in the room, which is namely, D&D religion is informed by what people assume about how real world religion works and not anything actually found in the setting or the rules. As some pointed out, 1e D&D explicitly had a table and a fortune mechanic for resolving the very point of what happens when a character appeals for divine aid. The only reason it should be surprising that D&D deities are active and willing to intervene is because the person assumes that's the way it works in the real world, regardless of what the text says.

I typically prefer a game where the gods are more distant. Meeting a god is like streets ahead of meeting the emperor, which is greater than meeting the king, which is greater than meeting the local baron, which is greater than meeting the mayor of your village, which is maybe something 1st level characters can do, if he's not too busy.

Actually meeting a deity physically is a much rarer thing. Those that do meet with dieties face to face on friendly terms are called Saints and are generally venerated. One of the characters in the campaign I'm currently running has acquired the reputation of a Saint which ironicly, isn't true. The closest he's come to his diety is through dreams and visions and the usual excercise of divine spells. But recieving the active work of a diety is something a peasant might expect at some point. And suffering from some god's divine wrath against the community is also something most peasants might reasonably expect at some point.

That might change, depending on the setting's other trappings, but generally if the mayor ain't gonna chip in to save somebody, sure as shoot a GOD ain't gonna do it.

My mayors are generally more active than usual as well, but there is a portion of your analogy that just doesn't work for me. Most of my mayors are like 50 year old 5th level Experts which no physical scores (STR, DEX, CON) above 9, no combat related feats, no combat related skills, often the Non-Combatant and Civilized traits, and no magical items related to offensive action. My mayors are generally comparitively to D&D tropes quite willing to help PC's in every way that they can provided the PC's present themselves as honorable persons, but really, what can such a character really do? Even when the PC are 1st level, they often have greater martial prowess than such a character. Beyond that, the mayors don't enjoy comparitive omniscience and omnipresence. They can't (for example) by concentrating see everything within five miles of every lit fire (per for example the 3e Dieties and Demigods), can't just pop in and help (per every editions Deities and Demigods), but must sludge through whatever obstacles that the PC's are facing to get to where they could help them, and mayors generally command no more than a dozen armed magistrates rather than legions of spiritual beings. It's not that the PC's haven't occassional recieved aid from such groups, because they have, but the aid they can offer is small and generally results in dead NPCs. Ultimately asking such NPCs for aid generally involves sacrificing NPCs to save the PCs, rather than the PC's shielding and protecting the NPCs. The same is not true of asking aid from the Gods. Arguably, many of the gods involved in the current campaign would rather the PCs ask them for aid than they ask the mayor.
 
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Well, some people are softies. They don't want to play a game where bad stuff happens.

Well, in some people's games, characters don't die (PCs, anyway). "Plot immunity" is a pretty common conceit.

My current game is going on 4 years with I think 8 PC deaths. All of them sucked and I miss every dead PC badly at times, but 'bad stuff happens'. The PC's don't have plot immunity. Not even the gods of my campaign world have plot immunity.

In a larger sense, where do we get the notion that whether or not 'bad stuff happens' is in any way related to the power of prayer, especially in a D&D context? Surely these are independent axis?
 

Ribonucleic acid freak out, the power of prayer.
Long halls of science and all the lunatics committed there.
Robot Lords of Tokyo, SMILE TASTE KITTENS!
Did you not know that the royal hunting grounds are always forbidden?

10001110001.
 

Also I don't understand why you need a cleric/magic to stabilize someone who is injured.
Well, that's a good question. The same question applies as to why you need a rogue/thief to search for traps, or a fighter to bust some moves in combat, or any other niche protection question you can think of.

To be fair, depending on edition, it may be easier or harder for non-clerics to do this.

I immediately voted "Nothing." The guy is a fighter, not a cleric. That is my knee-jerk response.
Fair enough. That is definitely true.

Mystical/spiritual stuff like this, I tend to try to play "mysterious."
So, the nonmagical stuff you treat differently then, I assume?
 

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