The Power of Prayer

[delericho]

Well, in some people's games, characters don't die (PCs, anyway). "Plot immunity" is a pretty common conceit.

The most recent example of this philosophy being [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] who seems to have a vested interest in PCs not dying.

True. It's perhaps worth noting that my answer was framed assuming the 'wife' character was a PC. If it was an NPC, the answer would have been different (untrained Heal checks being the order of the day there).

I should also note that I have absolutely no problem with PCs dying in combat, either due to an incoming attack or because their allies can't/don't stabilise them in time. It's just out-of-combat deaths that I don't like - they're just so damn anti-climactic.

 

[I'm A Banana]

It depends on what the issue is. If we're talking about whether a noncleric can use divine power, it doesn't matter. If we're asking whether the deity cares, it might or might not.

I suspect for me it would matter. I see deities as being very involved, and having reasons for the things they do. An accomplished worshipper is more worthy of attention than some random guy of the street.

So where this kind of breaks for me is with the Dirt Farmer. Dirt Farmers can be just as devout. If the Dirt Farmer's husband dies in an orc attack, does the god intervene? What about for all the Dirt Farmers who are just as devout? What threshold of "devout?" Do the Dirt Farmers know about this and make sure to be especially devout so as to secure for themselves and their loved ones a ripe old age?

Is a good chunk of the population rising from the dead after an orc attack just because the people were especially devout? What about in a theocracy where devotion is mandated and enforced by law?

It's not something I really want to get into, in my games, even when there ARE active deities. Miracles aren't miracles if they don't violate what you'd expect to happen. No one should have an expectation of having their dead wife rise up again, no matter how devout.

Well, some people are softies. They don't want to play a game where bad stuff happens.

Well, in some people's games, characters don't die (PCs, anyway). "Plot immunity" is a pretty common conceit.

The most recent example of this philosophy being [MENTION=22424]delericho[/MENTION] who seems to have a vested interest in PCs not dying.

But what about what makes for a better story? "Plot immunity" here is just not the most interesting result. A death of someone you love is a much more interesting plot point than near-death-because-deus-ex-machina-of-someone-you-love.

 

[steeldragons]

So, the nonmagical stuff you treat differently then, I assume?

Non-divine-magical stuff you mean? Or, like mundane healing skills/proficiencies?

Someone just using a first aid/stabilization/heal skill? No. There's nothing mysterious or spiritual about that. lol.

Non-divine magic, I treat differently because...well, it's not divine magic. Those with Arcane training/knowledge know [or have some conception of] the why's and, at least theoretical, "hows" their magic in manifested...but they're not healing people with magic or making entreaties to deities to make magic happen...in my world anyway.

Those using divine magic take on faith and belief that their prayers are being noticed and answered by their deity (or some intermediary). They don't know how or why...nor feel any need to know how or why...it's a matter of faith, "my god is good. i am his devoted servant."

 

[Wangalade]

Well, that's a good question. The same question applies as to why you need a rogue/thief to search for traps, or a fighter to bust some moves in combat, or any other niche protection question you can think of.

To be fair, depending on edition, it may be easier or harder for non-clerics to do this.

that's the difference, combat abilities are specifically spelled out, a wizard or a thief can still fight, just not well. first aid is the most basic application of medical knowledge, not something you only get with a cleric.

because the thief has the ability to use those skills specific to his class, it is excluded, or the proper use of those skills are excluded from others. Even considering differences between editions I don't recall any "first aid" skill on any character sheet I have seen, or a rule that only clerics can do first aid. therefore it is a basic knowledge that every adventurer should have, maybe not every single npc, but at least every adventurer. there are certain things I assume an adventurer can do in dnd. in other game systems I change my assumptions based on how skills work, but in dnd any adventurer can climb a tree, any adventurer can read and write if they have an average intelligence, and any adventurer can use first aid.

 

[Ahnehnois]

So where this kind of breaks for me is with the Dirt Farmer. Dirt Farmers can be just as devout. If the Dirt Farmer's husband dies in an orc attack, does the god intervene? What about for all the Dirt Farmers who are just as devout? What threshold of "devout?" Do the Dirt Farmers know about this and make sure to be especially devout so as to secure for themselves and their loved ones a ripe old age?

Very possibly, in a really high-magic gonzo setting.

For comparison, look at the traditional Raise Dead question. Are all the nobles just saving up diamonds in case they ever get offed? Is there a huge blood diamond industry built around funding resurrections? Are clerics on board with this?

In D&D, deities are generally real and generally interventionist and generally have the ability to make a mockery out of any real notion of life and death we might have. So any setting has to ask to what extent do they do this, and why?

But what about what makes for a better story? "Plot immunity" here is just not the most interesting result. A death of someone you love is a much more interesting plot point than near-death-because-deus-ex-machina-of-someone-you-love.

Some people suggested that the desperation prayer could incur some sort of penance from the deity and start a new quest, so there's a story there. Don't get me wrong, I often lean towards the let the dice fall where they may approach, but sometimes even blatant conceits like this can work.

And sometimes, those kinds of conceits are built into the rules themselves.

Someone just using a first aid/stabilization/heal skill? No. There's nothing mysterious or spiritual about that. lol.

Non-divine magic, I treat differently because...well, it's not divine magic.

Hey, to some people it's a contentious point. I picked the cleric as an example of niche protection because I think it's the most defensible niche (while the quasi-scientific magic and nonmagical niches are less so). But the idea that magic is special or should be treated differently than not magic is occasionally a contentious one.

And, depending on how you look at it, you can fold divine favor into even very basic rules like stabilization and first aid. Back on page 1 [MENTION=6775380]Arduin's[/MENTION] has a spiel about how the number of hit points a character has incorporated the extent to which the gods like your character.

 

[Ahnehnois]

My current game is going on 4 years with I think 8 PC deaths. All of them sucked and I miss every dead PC badly at times, but 'bad stuff happens'. The PC's don't have plot immunity. Not even the gods of my campaign world have plot immunity.

I've run campaigns both ways.

And I don't think I've ever given a fighter a cure spell, but I've definitely had deus ex machina NPC intervention, behind the screens fudging to prevent death, and other made up rules for fantastical happenings that change the direction of the game similarly. I've gotten away from it to an extent as I get older, but I can see pros and cons.

In a larger sense, where do we get the notion that whether or not 'bad stuff happens' is in any way related to the power of prayer, especially in a D&D context? Surely these are independent axis?

Separate but not unrelated. If you're looking at the game in an outcome-based way and you've decided that the characters will undergo a particular journey and that bad stuff will not happen, and the rules create an outcome that contradicts it, divine favor can be seen as a rationale for fudging the rules to get back to the outcome you want.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Take the following character: a human fighter of moderate but not spectacular level (let's say he's level 6 or so). He's good at fighting but also a very pious man. He worships the local NG deity (let's say Pelor or some close equivalent; the most common NG deity who includes healing among other things in his sphere of influence), and frequently roleplays his prayers to said deity. He buys potions only from this deity's temples, and leaves a little extra gold as a tithe. He frequently helps other worshippers in need. He spreads the faith. He never asks for anything in return.

However, he only ever takes levels of fighter, and has no spells or supernatural abilities of any sort. A few ranks in Knowledge (Religion) or whatever the system calls it, perhaps, but he's not a cleric, not by a long shot. His Wisdom is low enough that he couldn't cast spells even if he wanted to learn. He has no interest in being anything other than a fighter.

Now, he's fighting a pitched battle, and his character's wife, a fellow PC and likewise a faithful follower of the same deity, is felled by an orc, being dropped unconscious and helpless and down to within a point or two of dying. She might stabilize, but she'll probably die soon without help. With no healer in sight, the fighter finishes off the orcs and rushes to his fallen wife. Not knowing whether she's alive or dead and possessing no healing skill or magic items to speak of, the fighter prays for his wife's survival, begging his NG deity to heal her and keep her alive.

What happens next?

Pick whatever option you like the best.

It is possible that edition-specific rules or campaign or setting issues could affect your answer; feel free to elaborate.

I am running Ravenloft so the Dark Powers will definitely answer his call, only she will need to drink like a gallon of elf blood a day to remain alive.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I am running Ravenloft so the Dark Powers will definitely answer his call, only she will need to drink like a gallon of elf blood a day to remain alive.

Not familiar enough with Ravenloft, but would conventional magic usage carry similar costs? That is, is being a spellcaster in RL going to create terrible drawbacks due to higher entities messing with you. Tonally it seems like it would to me.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Not familiar enough with Ravenloft, but would conventional magic usage carry similar costs? That is, is being a spellcaster in RL going to create terrible drawbacks due to higher entities messing with you. Tonally it seems like it would to me.

Some spells and magic items are affected by the demiplane, and these are all listed and described in the ravenloft boxed sets. Also, committing acts of evil can attract the attention of the Dark Powers and require a Powers Check (which is a roll to see if are warped by the Dark Powers---in its final form this can result in becoming a dark lord). However, casting necromantic spells also triggers a Powers Check.

Generally the GM has a good deal of liberty in utilizing the dark powers. The purpose isn't to trip up the players or undermine their abilities, it is more about playing the Dark Powers as an entity that responds to acts of evil or even passionate appeals (like the example given).

 

[Celebrim]

So where this kind of breaks for me is with the Dirt Farmer. Dirt Farmers can be just as devout. If the Dirt Farmer's husband dies in an orc attack, does the god intervene? What about for all the Dirt Farmers who are just as devout? What threshold of "devout?"

Well, I've had 14 PC's so far in the campaign and only one would qualify IMO as 'devout'. One has the 'divine blood' trait, so it doesn't really matter that much if she's devout or not - she's family.

Supposing that normally only the devout can get divine intervention and that the devout threshold is 1 in 10, and that of those only 1 in 36 normally get their prayers answered, if a village is attacked by orcs, we're looking at maybe 1 miraculous intervention in the whole village. Now in fact, I think the PC's tend to be less devout than the population as a whole, but still we aren't talking about a lot of noticible effects (more on that later).

Do the Dirt Farmers know about this and make sure to be especially devout so as to secure for themselves and their loved ones a ripe old age?

In theory, well, yes. As I've said before, in general, an inhabitant of my world if transported to medieval Europe would be shocked by how little of an impact religion had on peoples daily lives.

Is a good chunk of the population rising from the dead after an orc attack just because the people were especially devout?

No. So assuming the average person is a 1st or 2nd level commoner, the expected degree of divine intervention (per my rules) is along the lines of a 1st level spell - a Santuary spell that hides them from orc, or an Obscuring Mist that suddenly arises and allows them to flee, or the Orc being dazed for a few moments allowing them to run away, or perhaps a cure light wounds that heals their dying friend enough that they can get to their feet and stumble away. So in the midst of the Orc attack, perhaps a half dozen tiny magical effects occur in ways that to the orcs don't even seem necessarily related to the supernatural.

I think it worth noting that of the three cases of divine intervention so far in the campaign, one of them was insufficient to change the outcome and rescue the PC from the trouble he'd gotten into. It is purely coincidence however that case was the one time an evil deity interfered on behalf of the PC's (one of the PC's had offered him a blood sacrifice of their own blood within his sacred 'grove', and then rolled box cars). Because of The Compact, the deities are careful not to just blow power on people without expectation of reward.

Honestly though, the Orcs probably have more trouble with things like Ancestral Spirits, Deluctas, Brownies, lesser animal spirits in the form of dogs or cats, and other 'small gods' that are moved to protect their village (likewise, if the villagers where to attack the orcs) than they would with the major dieties. But in no case is this likely to be something as dramatic as 'raise dead'.

But you want to talk about having no plot protection, consider my world where the orc tribe and the village of dirt farmers - all of which are NPCs - are living in their own ways as rich of lives as the PCs and have in many ways the same basic relationship to it. Presumably if the perspective of the players suddenly shifted to where they were the dirt farming inhabitants of the village attacked by the orc war party, their fundamental experience of play wouldnt' change. The world would still be haunted by fairies and spirits, filled with terrors and wonders, and meddled with by the gods of good and evil.

What about in a theocracy where devotion is mandated and enforced by law?

What about it?

I think that there is an implicit assumption in your question that the gods of D&D are basically like the Christian God and only care for and reward sincere worship. Again, that's a religious assumption informing your understanding of your campaign world. Zeus does not particularly care whether he is sincerely worshiped so long as the sweet smell of the fat of bulls rises to heaven. Zeus certainly does not want or expect a mutually loving relationship with his worshipers, unless those are particularly attractive females (probably with some divine blood already) and in which case he's only interested in a short fling and not particularly whether she enjoys it. Zeus's followers don't really expect Zeus to love them - they simply accept he has the right to demand worship and the power to punish if it is withheld. In a D&D world a rational argument can be made that mandating and enforcing devotion is in the best interests of the people, and that - given the wrathful and vengeful nature of the gods (see Greek myth) - a society that oppresses the less devout is just engaging in rational self-defence. You don't want to get you whole town sacked and everyone murdered just because some fool rake offends the Gods and steals a woman.

Miracles aren't miracles if they don't violate what you'd expect to happen.

*sigh*

I'm reminded of when Galadriel tried to get Sam Gamgee to explain to her what he meant by 'magic'. What do you mean by 'miracle', here? Isn't the whole point of pious faith that you do expect miracles to happen? If you don't really expect them to happen, perhaps they arent' miracles - they are coincidences.

No one should have an expectation of having their dead wife rise up again, no matter how devout.

In a world where as a practical matter, raise dead is no really big deal, I don't see how that follows.

But what about what makes for a better story? "Plot immunity" here is just not the most interesting result. A death of someone you love is a much more interesting plot point than near-death-because-deus-ex-machina-of-someone-you-love.

Really, what plot immunity? There is still plenty of oppurtunity to die in a story with active gods. People do it greek myth all the time.

And why does deus ex machina always make for a less interesting story? There is plenty of 'author ex machina' in well loved stories even when no 'deus' is involved. Is The Princess Bride less interesting because Wesley doesn't die? Is the Iliad less interesting because the gods are continually feuding with one another? What about the crazy coincidences in Dumas, Hugo, and so forth? How many Rom coms and comedies of manners and mistaken identies depend on crazy author engineered coincidences? What about Gene Wolfe? Tolkien? Harry Potter?

As a practical matter at an RPG table, I'm not sure I'm convinced the death of an NPC or PC is inherently more interesting and better of a story than one with divine intervention. For one thing, there is seldom time to build up and repair a story to the point that it becomes as interesting as it was when the relationship existed.

But I'm not even convinced your assertion holds true for literature generally.