The "Price That Magic Item" Game!

[hong]

But it's just not worth 12,500 in the eyes of your average player. What player would seriously pay that much for a little free movement once per day when they could buy some Boots of Speed instead?

The barbarian who wants to move and full attack in the same round, which is a very, very powerful ability.

 

[Wolfwood2]

I think your disconnect with me is that you price these for people who don't really want them instead of for people who want them--for instance, gloves that make every attack add your Sneak Attack damage are not as useful for the Rogue1/Fighter10 as for the Rogue11. Also, do recall that you can put the Natural Armour or Wisdom bonus onto the same amulet and have both. As to comparisons to Metamagic Rods--those Metamagic Rods are worth every penny, if not overpowered. Mistwell has said he doesn't agree on the Metamagic Rods, which is interesting. I'm willing to ask about them in another thread (I won't bring up the MIC items, just the Metamagic Rods).

I think items should be priced for people who want them, but not necessarily for a person who wants them the absolute most. If your character is such that a particular item is absolutely perfect for you, it's okay that you get it a little underpriced so that it'll still be competitive for people for whom the item is not absolutely perfect. If this threatens to somehow break the game then it's better addressed by arbitrary DM ruling "sorry, but the magical enchancement doesn't seem to work will with these feats/maneuvers" than by pricing restrictions.

And sure you can get other enchantments put on the same item, but you're still under the same total gold piece value limitations by level. 40,000 or 50,000 gp is a significant chunk of character wealth until all but the highest levels. It's a serious investment for something that only works once or a few times per day. That's why people pick the big six, because while something might be a really neat trick they can just plain get more value by investing in a magic weapon or a stat booster that will work reliably every single round.

 

[gnfnrf]

Could we get some clarification on the Amulet of Second Chances? It seems like some people are assuming this sets things back an entire round, which means that everybody else's actions get undone as well as your own.

"You undo all the events of your current turn and begin the turn again" as a swift action. It only resets events that occurred during your action.

As for the question of whether it resets its own daily use counter, this is silly. Charges/uses are reset as a consequence of the effect having never actually occurred. Since the effect of the amulet has occurred (things have been reset), the daily usage counts.

Otherwise, it would reset events to the beginning of your turn, but in resetting ever using the amulet, you wouldn't in fact be at the beginning of your turn, since you didn't use the amulet.

--
gnfnrf

 

[hong]

"You undo all the events of your current turn and begin the turn again" as a swift action. It only resets events that occurred during your action.

As for the question of whether it resets its own daily use counter, this is silly. Charges/uses are reset as a consequence of the effect having never actually occurred. Since the effect of the amulet has occurred (things have been reset), the daily usage counts.

Otherwise, it would reset events to the beginning of your turn, but in resetting ever using the amulet, you wouldn't in fact be at the beginning of your turn, since you didn't use the amulet.

--
gnfnrf

Hm, you may be right. It only resets to the start of your own turn, as opposed to the top of the initiative order.

Still damn-near broken, though. Call it 100,000 gp and on probation.

 

[moritheil]

Ah, it's not a real new book discussion thread until a heated debate pops up.

 

[Deset Gled]

Fortunately the rules for adding those common types of bonuses to an existing item have changed, making it less expensive to do so.

Because this is an issue likely to come up for a lot of items, I'll give a brief run-down on those rules.

Before anything else, I would like to voice my opinion that this is one of the stupidest item-related rules I can imagine. If you're going to do this, you might as well throw the entire concept of item slots out the window. I would never, under any circumstances, allow this option in a game I ran.

/rant

1. Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker: Swift command action 1/day move up to half your speed as part of the same swift action used to activate the charm; this movement does not provoke attacks of opportunity; round down to the nearest 5-foot increment when relevant.

-My biggest concer here is that the movement does not provoke AoOs. Essentially, this could let a monk 5' step a 40' distance. I probably wouldn't allow it on principal (it kinda kills the tumble skill). If allowed, I would probably price this item around 10-15k. I give the writer's credit for trying to reference the Horizon Walker.

2. Scarab of Invulnerability: Swift command action 1/day gives 1 round of total immunity to all forms of damage (including ability damage), from all things including weapons, spells, psionics, poison, environment, or anything else causing damage. Must wear fro 24 hours before it attunes to you and can function.

-Pretty nice, but you'll probably end up wasting the charge a significant amount of the time. The "affinity" time is critical to it being balanced. 30k.

3. Brooch of Stability: 1/day when your HPs drop to -1 or lower, automatically stabilize (assuming damage was not enough to kill you).

-Only usefull at low levels. 100gp.

4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Standard command action 1/day summons a giant bee, as summon natures ally spell, for 1 minute.

-A slotted Figurine of Wondrous Power, usable more often but for less time. As a nitpick, I would say that it should require a 1 full round action if it's going to reference SNA. I'll say 5k or so.

5. Amulet of Retributive Healing: Swift command action 3/day, next effect you use before end of your turn that heals another creature's damage also heals you the same amount (as long as you could be healed by that same effect). If effect heals multiple creatures, you still only get healed one time.

-Nice for melee clerics. Otherwise, basically a limited version of a Chain Spell metamagic rod. 4k.

6. Amulet of Second Chances: Swift command action 1/day to undo all events of your current turn and begin the turn again. Includes moving self and creatures back to positions of start of turn, removing damage and conditions, and in all other ways resetting the turn. Affected creatures remain aware of the now non-existent turn, but free to make new choices in new turn.

-One hundred billion dollars.

7. Torc of Displacement: Immediate mental action grants concealment for 1 round of a percentage based on charges you use. 3 charges/day, renews at dawn, spendable as follows: 1 charge 20% miss chance, 2 30%, 3 40%.

-I like this one a lot. Probably needs a "must wear for 24 hrs" clause to prevent abuse. The 1 round/use is limiting. 3k if you add in the "24 hr affinity" clause, 13k without it.

8. Scarab of Stabilization: Constant if drop below 0 hp but still alive, auto stabilize. One time use secondary power, if drop below -10 hp become -1 hp instead and stabilize (scarab crumbles to dust if secondary ability used).

-Every bit as good as a Contingent Cure (moreso, if you face attacks that can leave you at negative hundreds of hit points). Pricing should be similar to that of a one time use Major Ring of Spell Storing, as that's the only other way to mimc the ability for non-casters. I'll say 50k.

9. Heartseeking Amulet: Swift command action 3/day to make next single melee attack made within that turn a melee touch attack.

-More room for abuse than I can shake a stick at. 75k.

10. Amulet of Emergency Healing: Immediate command action 3/day to provide instant healing of 1d4+5 points of damage to self or creature in 30 feet of you. Can even be used to prevent death of creature reduced to below -9 hit points, ans long as healing returns target to -9 or higher.

-Immediate action + ranged heal + ability to undo death = very powerful. Pretty much impossible to balance, as it requires a very high price for the utility but by the time you can afford it the limited healing ability won't make enough of a difference. I probably wouldn't allow it, but if I had to I'd say 60k.

 

[Slaved]

4. Amber Amulet of Vermin, Giant Bee: Standard command action 1/day summons a giant bee, as summon natures ally spell, for 1 minute.

-A slotted Figurine of Wondrous Power, usable more often but for less time. As a nitpick, I would say that it should require a 1 full round action if it's going to reference SNA. I'll say 5k or so.

I was wondering, since this is a giant bee and those basically hit once and then die because they hit does that change anyones pricing for this item?

Since I quoted Deset Gled for him it would be a 5kgp item to use a standard action once per day to make a creature that probably hits once and then dies.

Does it work like normal summonings and goes away when it dies? If so its poison may or may not work initially and will never work for after 1 minute because the creature only sticks around for 1 minute at the most anyway.

 

[Deset Gled]

Since I quoted Deset Gled for him it would be a 5kgp item to use a standard action once per day to make a creature that probably hits once and then dies.

The attack is pretty weak, but I think that there's also a nice utility aspect to the item. You can have the bee fly with items or small people, or just generally act as a distraction. My point of comparison was the Ebony Fly figurine, which is usable 3/week, but stays around for 12 hours and cannot attack. The Fly costs 10k. The limited time span for the bee limits its utility, but 1/day usage means you worry less about wasting it. The fact that it can attack also makes it a better distraction device.

I believe that the poison should stay after the duration expires, but I don't have a rules quote for it.

 

[Mistwell]

I was wondering, since this is a giant bee and those basically hit once and then die because they hit does that change anyones pricing for this item?

Since I quoted Deset Gled for him it would be a 5kgp item to use a standard action once per day to make a creature that probably hits once and then dies.

Does it work like normal summonings and goes away when it dies? If so its poison may or may not work initially and will never work for after 1 minute because the creature only sticks around for 1 minute at the most anyway.

There is a long list of different Amber Amulets of Summoning in the book. For what it is worth, this is the least costly one, probably because of the reasons you mention. Yes, it goes away when it dies (but can be re-summoned the next day).

To me, it would be worth it for the flanking you can get from the bee. Or, if you have a divination spell that can follow along with a creature, or see through it's eyes (which happen to have darkvision and a good spot check), the bee could be useful for a minute of flying scouting. And since it is a 5 foot long bee, it could even be useful for triggering traps.

Fropm the SRD:

Although many times larger, growing to a length of about 5 feet, giant bees behave generally the same as their smaller cousins. Giant bees are usually not aggressive except when defending themselves or their hive.
Poison (Ex)

Injury, Fortitude DC 11, initial and secondary damage 1d4 Con. The save DC is Constitution-based. A giant bee that successfully stings another creature pulls away, leaving its stinger in the creature. The bee then dies.
Skills

Giant bees have a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks. *They also have a +4 racial bonus on Survival checks to orient themselves.

Size/Type: Medium Vermin
Hit Dice: 3d8 (13 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 80 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/+2
Attack: Sting +2 melee (1d4 plus poison)
Full Attack: Sting +2 melee (1d4 plus poison)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Poison
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., vermin traits
Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +2
Abilities: Str 11, Dex 14, Con 11, Int Ø, Wis 12, Cha 9
Skills: Spot +5, Survival +1*
Feats: —
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Solitary, buzz (2-5), or hive (11-20)
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: No coins; ¼ goods (honey only); no items
Advancement: 4-6 HD (Medium); 7-9 HD (Large)
Level Adjustment: —

 

[Slaved]

The attack is pretty weak, but I think that there's also a nice utility aspect to the item. You can have the bee fly with items or small people, or just generally act as a distraction. My point of comparison was the Ebony Fly figurine, which is usable 3/week, but stays around for 12 hours and cannot attack. The Fly costs 10k. The limited time span for the bee limits its utility, but 1/day usage means you worry less about wasting it. The fact that it can attack also makes it a better distraction device.

That makes sense. I guess I was thinking more about a bag of tricks and which I would rather have.

The gray bag of tricks is 900gp, is useable 10 times a week, and the creature sticks around for 10 minutes. The randomness makes it a little less useful for planning around it but the other two factors make it to me a lot more useful in general. I would rather have the bag of tricks, sadly.

I believe that the poison should stay after the duration expires, but I don't have a rules quote for it.

That might make a difference for pricing Get a few of these and milk them for poison every day!