The Problem I Have With Spellcaster Prestige Classes

[the Jester]

OK, I know this has been hashed over again and again.... still, hear me out.

The problem I have with arcane spellcaster prestige classes boils down to the sorcerer. A sorcerer loses nothing except familiar progression by taking a prc. There's the 'cost' of entry, but that often helps optimize your character towards the prc's focus anyhow, so it isn't really always much of a cost.

Seems like sorcerers ought to either have a little more to lose or lose a little more or something. I just basically think there's no real reason to be a high-level sorc if you can take a prc that gives caster levels at every level. Wizards, clerics, druids and even bards lose stuff (bonus feats, turning, wildshape, better songs); sorcerers just get better.

I guess one could argue they don't get to switch spells out either, maybe?

Anyone share this opinion and have any solutions?

 

[Tabarnak Smokeblower]

I guess one could argue they don't get to switch spells out either, maybe?

Was asking myself that very question. Is it clarified that they do/don't?

As for the sorceror progression, I agree that they lose pretty close to bubkis (sp?) when PrClassing, because they gain no powers at higher levels.

I guess WotC pretty much concluded that the sorceror was a powerful class (an example of that would be that they are "1 level behind" in spells available) and that they didn't needed anything more later on in levels, that all the spells they can cast per day were all the abilities the sorceror needed.

Do clerics lose anything by multi-classing? Turn undead progression? Are wizards penalized by PrClassing? Metamagic feats? Familiar?

IMO, the druid is the only class that's really hurt by taking a prestige class that gives a full spell progression...

TS

 

[Cheiromancer]

Well, one approach is to make the prestige class harder for sorcerers to enter. 8 ranks of Knowledge (the planes) is level 5 for a wizard, and level 13 for a sorcerer. Add a metamagic feat to the pre-req'a, perhaps Scribe Scroll, high numbers of spells known... maybe even "must be able to prepare spells of level X or higher."

Another way is to give benefits that are more beneficial to Wizards. A bonus spell mastery feat. A signature spell or other form of spontaneous casting. Free use of the Quicken feat a number of times per day. Access to a domain list as if it were on his class spell list (not spells known- spell list).

You don't have to get too crazy- but if a prestige class gives the equivalent of one more feat to a wizard than it does to a sorcerer, and if the sorcerer is disadvantaged a little (about a feat's worth) to enter the class, then the two are balanced.

Much more tricky is to make a class that is equally valuable to sorcerers and clerics... but that's a different question entirely.

 

[Andion Isurand]

Many other posters I have seen, complain that the Sorcerer is underpowered anyway.

To me, the Sorcerer and the Fighter find a lot of strength in multiclassing and going with PrCs.

In addtion, a lot of spellcasting PrCs require that one is able to cast spells of a certain spell level. The Sorcerer will always have to wait for one more level before entering a PrC with such a requirement, since they take longer to enter into higher spell levels.

 

[FireLance]

I am considering the following fix, but it only works if there is a minor change to the spells per day table so that clerics, druids, sorcerers and wizards get base spells per day according to the same table.

The bonus spell slots a sorcerer gets are now class abilities rather than integral to his spells per day advancement. Similarly, the domain spell slots for a cleric are class abilities rather than tied to his spells per day advancement. A sorcerer or cleric who multiclasses will thus have to give up higher-level bonus spell slots or domain spell slots respectively.

 

[Technik4]

AFAIK the spell switch thing applies even to prcs a sorceror takes. It is distressing, but a couple easy things are filling out the sorceror's class list OR giving 2 more skill points OR making their HD d6 (most dicey change). Any one of those would give a sorceror a decent reason to stay a sorceror, although I like giving them a skill-based feat every 5 levels, eschew materials for free at 1st, and 4 skill points/level. It makes them the "skilled" arcanist, but in fact only gets them on the par since Int = Skill Points and Int drives wizards spells. Ah well.

Technik Sorceror Variant of the Week:
-Add Eschew Materials at 1st level
-At 5th and every 5 levels afterwards a sorceror gains one of the following bonus feats: Skill Focus, Any +2/+2 feat which contains 2 sorceror class skills, or Combat Casting.
-Sorcerors have 4 + INT skill points per level.
-Sorcerors may freely swap up to 2 class skills, subject to DM approval.

A lot of it is skill stuff, so not really too powerful. They still get spells a level behind wizards, and like wizards still don't have ultra-compelling reasons to remain a sorceror, but its something (+2 skill points, skill feat/5 levels).

Technik

 

[krunchyfrogg]

At least they added Bluff to the Sorcerer skill list.


Sorcerers lose less than Wizards when entering a PrC, true. The ability to swap out spells is a class ability, and PrC's specifically say that you lose class abilities. The fact that almost every spellcasting PrC requires a skill that isn't on the sorcerer list is the "hidden" drawback to the PrC. Of course the PrC is good for the Sorcerer to take, but it takes a lot longer to get there.

 

[satori01]

Sorcerers lose less than a wizard when joining a prestige class,
(a proposition I frankly dont agree with, since it depends upon the prestige class),
because they have less to gain remaining a sorcerer. (which has been stated above).

Rangers and Paladins can make wands with 4 level spells in them cheaper than a sorcerer can,(blood an tome, dmg 3.5).

WHA? a silly artifact of the magic creation system, limited sorcerer item creation.

Spontaneous casters have a full round action when using metamagic and cant use quicken WHA?

there goes the sorcerous spell dueler.

The sorcerer as a class is a great concept, that isnt quite fleshed out to a 100% satisfaction.