A little background: I am running a 3.5 game set in the Forgotten realms. Most of the players are great but I have a true Min-maxer. I am running a somewhat low power, low magic game so I tried to flat out ban some of what I thought was overpowered. One of my players has in my opinion min-maxed his sneak attack to what I think is ridiculous. I'm truly considering a reboot of his, if not everyone's characters. I know that sneak attack is situational but most of the creatures I can use that are immune are also immune to critical hits and that's bad for the rest of the group. Our other DM in his campaign had to scale up all the encounters just to keep his min-maxed warlock from destroying everything. I don't want to take that route because its also unfair to the other players. Any ideas on how to keep the power level down without just flat out going ban-happy?
The problem is choice
- Thread starter Chase A.
- Start date
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I wish 3.x DMs wouldn't try to run "low magic", that requires so many house rules you're running/playing something else. 
You can always go core-only or core plus (whatever) only, for instance, core + FR only. I don't know where this ridiculous sneak attack boosting stuff is coming from, but it's quite possible it's from a poorly-playtested splatbook or Dragon Magazine article.
DMing 3.x is hard (that's why I gave it up) and there's very few helpful resources. I'd love to see a Q&A to help DMs.
You can always go core-only or core plus (whatever) only, for instance, core + FR only. I don't know where this ridiculous sneak attack boosting stuff is coming from, but it's quite possible it's from a poorly-playtested splatbook or Dragon Magazine article.
DMing 3.x is hard (that's why I gave it up) and there's very few helpful resources. I'd love to see a Q&A to help DMs.
Cyclone_Joker
First Post
What level is his character? The group? Also, can you post his build? Odds are, if it even begins to approach "ridiculous," then it's not actually a legal build.
Or, let me put it this way: Sneak attack is awful. It might look impressive at level 3, when he's doing an extra couple D6 plus some maybe ability damage, but once you hit level eight or so, almost every CR-appropriate creature and its dog is immune to crits.
Or, if that doesn't work, just talk to the guy. Tell him your campaign and the rest of the group just aren't working well with such a "powerful" character, and ask him to rebuild.
On a related note, why would being immune to crits be bad for the party? I honestly cannot see any way that makes sense unless your fighter is a crit-fisher, and, if that's the case, he should be vastly superior to any sneak attack.
Or, let me put it this way: Sneak attack is awful. It might look impressive at level 3, when he's doing an extra couple D6 plus some maybe ability damage, but once you hit level eight or so, almost every CR-appropriate creature and its dog is immune to crits.
Or, if that doesn't work, just talk to the guy. Tell him your campaign and the rest of the group just aren't working well with such a "powerful" character, and ask him to rebuild.
On a related note, why would being immune to crits be bad for the party? I honestly cannot see any way that makes sense unless your fighter is a crit-fisher, and, if that's the case, he should be vastly superior to any sneak attack.
I agree. It really shafts melee, they really need magic items to keep up.
Cleric, Druid, and Wizard are from core. I doubt making a game core-only will solve any problems.
I know how you feel.
So, re. banning stuff (which you don't want to do). The first question to ask yourself is this: playing the character like that is obviously what he enjoys. Is it really lessening the enjoyment of others? If so, then sure: address it. But if not, then the next question is: so what benefit does reducing his enjoyment have?
Your other suggested approach is to modify encounters in some way. Nerfing him with tons of undead is another "make the game unfun for him" solution. So what you want is a way that he can run around feeling awesome, without dominating encounters so that the other players feel inconsequential. Note that this goes back to the first point: it's only an issue if the other players feel that way. If it's not lessening anybody else's fun, let him have his fun.
So how does he get to be awesome without diminishing the other PC contributions? Splitting the party up is a PITA. I would regularly include a couple of extra bad guys who are pretty much there to be sneak attacked to death. Their function is to make him feel awesome. Stick 'em on a ledge or something so he can rogue his way up there, hiding and climbing. He'll love it and think you're an awesome DM, and your other players will be able to have the fight unimpeded.
Problem with that approach is you have to come up with something different each time. That's tough. You could try slipping in PC focused encounters - so occasionally one is largely solved by him sneak attacking, but the next has undead. So you're not just nerfing him, you're also facilitating him.
All that aside, the very first thing you should do is talk to him and explain your difficulty. He might understand and voluntarily change his character. Asking nicely should always be approach #1!
So, re. banning stuff (which you don't want to do). The first question to ask yourself is this: playing the character like that is obviously what he enjoys. Is it really lessening the enjoyment of others? If so, then sure: address it. But if not, then the next question is: so what benefit does reducing his enjoyment have?
Your other suggested approach is to modify encounters in some way. Nerfing him with tons of undead is another "make the game unfun for him" solution. So what you want is a way that he can run around feeling awesome, without dominating encounters so that the other players feel inconsequential. Note that this goes back to the first point: it's only an issue if the other players feel that way. If it's not lessening anybody else's fun, let him have his fun.
So how does he get to be awesome without diminishing the other PC contributions? Splitting the party up is a PITA. I would regularly include a couple of extra bad guys who are pretty much there to be sneak attacked to death. Their function is to make him feel awesome. Stick 'em on a ledge or something so he can rogue his way up there, hiding and climbing. He'll love it and think you're an awesome DM, and your other players will be able to have the fight unimpeded.
Problem with that approach is you have to come up with something different each time. That's tough. You could try slipping in PC focused encounters - so occasionally one is largely solved by him sneak attacking, but the next has undead. So you're not just nerfing him, you're also facilitating him.
All that aside, the very first thing you should do is talk to him and explain your difficulty. He might understand and voluntarily change his character. Asking nicely should always be approach #1!
Hmm. 3.5E does have a few problems with min-maxing, and especially when you try to run a low-power game. It's not really set up to be that sort of system. Although I was fine running with "every official book", the basic problems with the scaling eventually drove me off to 4E - which led to a completely different set of problems!
I am curious to know exactly what your rogue is capable of and what the party level is. 3.5E has problems before 10th level, but the biggest ones come later.
The basic method I'd use is running the campaign with "Core Books only" for a low-power game; you're able to keep a much better lid on it that way. I'd also be very wary of running anything over 10th level. However, for a campaign that seems somewhat advanced, these are probably not options!
Cheers!
I am curious to know exactly what your rogue is capable of and what the party level is. 3.5E has problems before 10th level, but the biggest ones come later.
The basic method I'd use is running the campaign with "Core Books only" for a low-power game; you're able to keep a much better lid on it that way. I'd also be very wary of running anything over 10th level. However, for a campaign that seems somewhat advanced, these are probably not options!
Cheers!
(Psi)SeveredHead
Adventurer
I disagree. Clerics are powerful. Clerics with nightstick cheese are even more powerful. Wizards are powerful. Wizards with broken PrC are even more powerful. The core rules have serious balance problems, but letting in everything just makes it worse.
For me, the advantages of core only aren't the nature of the abilities, but the volume of them and my ability to be familiar with them all. I'm much more able to keep a lid on things based on a smaller rules footprint because I'm more familiar with it all.
In my opinion, his build doesn't matter but here goes. They are level 6. He is a 2/4 Swashbuckler/rogue doing (including base weapon damage) 4d6 +15. It's all legal, I've checked although I think some of the feats he is using (Daring outlaw and Kraven) are overpowered. What I am interested in is a way to keep power levels in check without minimal banning of material. I have seriously considered going PHB only but then he would refuse to play. Then the other players would insist that I loosen my rules so he will play.
You have a major problem: you believe you can run a low-powered campaign when you allow all material by default. You can't do it that way. You have to be very specific about what material you let in to run a campaign in a manner that the system isn't designed for.
Quite frankly, at this point I'd ban "Craven" (its sourcebook is hardly a core one), and then require the all feat/power choices to go through you before they're added to the character. Your campaign doesn't allow much else - doing low-powered with 3.5E requires a lot of manipulation of the material. There's no way around that.
Quite frankly, at this point I'd ban "Craven" (its sourcebook is hardly a core one), and then require the all feat/power choices to go through you before they're added to the character. Your campaign doesn't allow much else - doing low-powered with 3.5E requires a lot of manipulation of the material. There's no way around that.
Really? Wow. I think your problems are more complex than presented!
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