D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[Helldritch]

They indicate whether or not you are effective in combat, but they do nothing to measure how effective you are. Someone at 42/50 is not any more effective than someone at 34/50, or someone at 42/100, or someone at 7/7. We know this to be true, because the rules tell us this.

What Hit Points do measure, explicitly, is when and how badly you are hit. Someone at 34/50 has been hit twice as many times, or twice as severely, as someone at 42/100. Again, we know this because the rules tell us this.

The rules are pretty much clear.
Be you at 100% HP or 1%, your combat effectiveness is full. No loss.
HP represents luck, gods' favor, experience, plot armor and have nothing with how you fight. Your level and Proficiency bonus are what measure your combat effectiveness.
HP are not there to show how much physical punishment you can take, but how much you can avoid!

Take this scenario with Bob at different levels.
Bob the 1st level fighter is fighting an orc. The orc swings its axe for 13 points of damage. The axe cleave through the armor. Bob falls down, uncounscious. Will it be a fatal wound? Who knows. Billy the Bard is a bit far to heal...

Bob the 2nd level fighter is fighting an orc. The orc swings its axe for 12 points of damage. Bob barely parries the blow to his head. His experience saved him that injury. He is a bit tired, but he can press on the orc. Bob hits the orc for 13 points of damage, the orc barely parries with his shield. Bob wins the next initiative, and hit the orc for 10 points of damage. Now Bob kills the Orc with a clean strike to the heart. Billy the bard is still stuck with an orc. For some reason, the Orc keeps missing Billy but the orc is enraged beyond belief. "My mother was not a GOBLIN!" can Bob hear the orc. Bob rushes to Billy's help.

Bob the 20th level fighter is fighting 6 orcs. They all hit him for 12 damages (that DM is lucky isn't he?) Bob takes 72 damage but Bob parries all attacks. A lesser fighter would have been cut in pieces but not Bob. Bob feels that it is urgent that he does something. Bob did not see the arrow that struck his back for 8 damage as the armor deflected the arrow. Bob attacks the orcs, fell four of them, Action surge, kills the two others and rushes to help his friend Billy the Bard in a deadly lock with 4 more orcs. Bob kills two of these with his remaining attacks. Ho Bob does have a few scratches and bruises. But Bob is mostly fine. Nothing dangerous to his health was done. But better get some healing to be sure (or a short rest or whatever). And there are two more orc archers to deal with...

Here you are. You saw Bob at various stages of his career. Only in first level did the axe's swing put his life in danger. The other times, plot armor, experience, luck and gods' favors protected Bob. Bob in the two last examples is bruised, hurt and might even be bleeding a bit, but nothing serious was done to him. That is why his combat effectiveness isn't altered.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Perhaps it is just the terminology that is an issue?

Perhaps. The fact that a heavily injured hero is more likely to fall than a healthy hero would be, is certainly a factor in their long-term effectiveness; but that's not what the book is saying.

Are you "hit" though? It is more that the "attack against you was effective" and consequently your effectiveness will be reduced by the amount rolled. When your hp equals 0 you are no longer effective in the fight-- you are out.

Yes. Definitely. Absolutely. It must be the case that an attack which hits and deals damage has actually hit you. The alternative - that you can suffer injury without anyone touching you (by hand, weapon, or magic) - is too ridiculous to entertain. Such an assertion would cause far, far more problems than it solves.

I am really not getting this example: "Someone at 34/50 has been hit twice as many times, or twice as severely, as someone at 42/100."

That was a typo, because I haven't had coffee yet. The second value should be 42/50, indicated a loss of 8hp relative to the first value having lost 16hp.

 

[Helldritch]

@Helldritch, good summation. I will just add (and yes, I'm repeating my super-nit-picky comment) that it generally only takes 2 strikes when a PC is down to kill them not 3. If someone is unconscious, you get advantage to hit and it's an automatic crit. Critical hits make you lose 2 death saves.

Two other quick thoughts. Focusing fire can make a huge difference. Too often monsters spread out their damage which is not effective.

The other is to target the squishies. Have monsters come in from multiple directions or simply ignore that guy in full plate with a shield. Kill the wizard in the back first. I actually have to remember to attack the tanks in my party now and then so they can have their moment in the sun when I miss.

I'm sure there's more, maybe someday I'll write down thoughts coherently enough to start a separate thread.

Just to be nitpicky my self...
With a healing word, you'll need three hits to kill a character. 1 to bring him at zero and dying. Two more to seal the deal.
But, yeah, bad tactics also comes into play very often.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Bob in the two last examples is bruised, hurt and might even be bleeding a bit, but nothing serious was done to him. That is why his combat effectiveness isn't altered.

If he was hurt and bleeding, then he wouldn't be good as new after taking a nap. If there was nothing physically wrong with him whatsoever, then he wouldn't fall unconscious and potentially bleed to death from taking a single point of "real" damage.

There is no possible state for Bob to be in that supports his being perfectly fine after taking a nap, while also being an inch away from death. Your position is untenable.

To say nothing of that fact that you're trying to model the narrative and theological effects of an attack, while completely neglecting the physical reality where it's taking place. If you're firing an arrow at someone, and the possibility of it actually hitting them isn't even on the table, then something has gone catastrophically wrong with your model.

 

[TheSword]

Giving a hero that drops to 0 hp a level of exhaustion (cumulative with future drops) would go some way to reducing whack’a’mole

 

[Crimson Longinus]

If he was hurt and bleeding, then he wouldn't be good as new after taking a nap. If there was nothing physically wrong with him whatsoever, then he wouldn't fall unconscious and potentially bleed to death from taking a single point of "real" damage.

There is no possible state for Bob to be in that supports his being perfectly fine after taking a nap, while also being an inch away from death. Your position is untenable.

To say nothing of that fact that you're trying to model the narrative and theological effects of an attack, while completely neglecting the physical reality where it's taking place. If you're firing an arrow at someone, and the possibility of it actually hitting them isn't even on the table, then something has gone catastrophically wrong with your model.

Perhaps Bob was just really demoralised and dying of sadness?

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Giving a hero that drops to 0 hp a level of exhaustion (cumulative with future drops) would go some way to reducing whack’a’mole

I have considered that. Has anyone actually tried this? I'm afraid that it would be too punitive to front line warriors who take most of the beating.

 

[tetrasodium]

I have considered that. Has anyone actually tried this? I'm afraid that it would be too punitive to front line warriors who take most of the beating.

I suspect it would make combat feel a lot like DCC while managing to narrow the gap between "yawn we can do this all day & "wow I didn't expect so many of you to die so quick". Rather than a healthy mount of strategy & planning because exhaustion makes a lot of the death spiraal injury mechanics people have pointed to look positively restrained.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I suspect it would make combat feel a lot like DCC while managing to narrow the gap between "yawn we can do this all day & "wow I didn't expect so many of you to die so quick". Rather than a healthy mount of strategy & planning because exhaustion makes a lot of the death spiraal injury mechanics people have pointed to look positively restrained.

Yes, you're probably right. I kinda wish exhaustion track was more granular. I have often considered using it for various mechanics but the problem is that one point is already really nasty and it gets way worse really quickly.

 

[Zsong]

Oh god. Ot another thread on hit points. Please god no. I’ll be good. I’ll be nice for Christmas. Please dear god don’t let this happen. I’ll even go to church this Sunday.

 

[Helldritch]

If he was hurt and bleeding, then he wouldn't be good as new after taking a nap. If there was nothing physically wrong with him whatsoever, then he wouldn't fall unconscious and potentially bleed to death from taking a single point of "real" damage.

There is no possible state for Bob to be in that supports his being perfectly fine after taking a nap, while also being an inch away from death. Your position is untenable.

To say nothing of that fact that you're trying to model the narrative and theological effects of an attack, while completely neglecting the physical reality where it's taking place. If you're firing an arrow at someone, and the possibility of it actually hitting them isn't even on the table, then something has gone catastrophically wrong with your model.

1) In example #1. Bob is not fine and well. He is down to zero and dying. Read Saelorn, read. He will need assistance and someone to stabilize him.

2) In the other example. Everything is fine. Hp are going down. But no actual real debilitating harm is done. That is why an overnight nap will restore HP (using HD in my case, or magic). HP are plot armor, experience and yaddi yadda.

2b) Yes the arrow did hit but did no real damage. The armor saved the day, be it the plot armor or the armor itself or the gods' favor or just an instinctive reaction from Bob who shifted just enough so that the angle the arrow hit was just a graze. That is what HP represent. Unless you go down, no permanent or debilitating bodily harm is done. You're just tired, bruised and battered but otherwise fine. Only if you fall down to zero will you be actually injured.

And this is at the zero that the trouble start. There are no consequences to fall to zero. A lucky death save of 20 and hey! You're at 1hp with full capacity. A level of exhaustion should be given. But that is not in the rule.

Again. HP are not meat point. There are other systems that do that and they're not that popular either. But do as you want.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

@Helldritch

I think it is incoherent to describe a hit that deal as damage as a parried strike. If that's a hit what's a miss then?

 

[Mannahnin]

@Helldritch

I think it is incoherent to describe a hit that deal as damage as a parried strike. If that's a hit what's a miss then?

Under this model, a miss is an attack that didn't exhaust him at all to defend against. No bruise, no strain, little or no sweat.

A hit that leaves the target at positive HP causes minor to trivial injury at most, but primarily wears them down and makes it harder for them to defend themselves from the eventual blow which truly gets through their guard- the one that reduces them to 0 HP.

 

[TwoSix]

Under this model, a miss is an attack that didn't exhaust him at all to defend against. No bruise, no strain, little or no sweat.

A hit that leaves the target at positive HP causes minor to trivial injury at most, but primarily wears them down and makes it harder for them to defend themselves from the eventual blow which truly gets through their guard- the one that reduces them to 0 HP.

This. In general, I narrate based on the result of the target much more so than the result of any one attack roll. The hit that knocks a target to 0 is a big hit, whether it does 5 or 50 damage. If the target only goes down from 500 to 470 HP, then the hit isn't that big of deal, even if it was a max damage critical.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

1) In example #1. Bob is not fine and well. He is down to zero and dying. Read Saelorn, read. He will need assistance and someone to stabilize him,

I wasn't talking about your example #1. That example almost makes sense. Until he rolls a 20 on the death save, and then takes a nap after the fight, thus removing all evidence that one hour ago he was twelve seconds away from bleeding to death (assuming a good roll on his Hit Die).

So which is it? Was he beaten within twelve seconds of death? Or was he not substantially injured? Because the rules tell us that both are true, which is inconsistent.

2b) Yes the arrow did hit but did no real damage. The armor saved the day, be it the plot armor or the armor itself or the gods' favor or just an instinctive reaction from Bob who shifted just enough so that the angle the arrow hit was just a graze. That is what HP represent. Unless you go down, no permanent or debilitating bodily harm is done. You're just tired, bruised and battered but otherwise fine. Only if you fall down to zero will you be actually injured.

Now you're just making stuff up. There is no factor in the equation of Hit Points for plot armor, or divine favor.

Plot armor isn't real, even by the standards of a world with magic and dragons. This isn't some cheesy pulp novel, where events unfold by the rule of drama.

The gods aren't actively intervening in the affairs of mortals. Or if they are, they're doing so by much more explicit methods. They aren't micro-managing the trajectory of every weapon on every battlefield ever.

It's like you aren't even pretending to take this seriously.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Under this model, a miss is an attack that didn't exhaust him at all to defend against. No bruise, no strain, little or no sweat.

Wow. How bad is this attacker, that their target doesn't even need to try to defend against their attacks? About as impressive as the cleric whose "miracles" are less effective than taking a nap, I suppose. Truly, this is an Age of Heroes.

 

[Don Durito]

I have considered that. Has anyone actually tried this? I'm afraid that it would be too punitive to front line warriors who take most of the beating.

The reason I use lingering injuries instead is that most of them are generally less punitive then exhaustion (I've house ruled exhaustion, but I actually want something to reflect exhaustion).

I've not specifically tried exhaustion for 0, but my experience is that exhaustion generally leads to 'rest now' if at all possble. You can't get very far into exhaustion without getting caught in a death spiral. Half Speed can be extremely dangerous and at level 3 with disadvantage on saving throws and ability checks combat effectiveness is way down.

It's a delicate balance. You want it to feel like something has happened, but you can easily put the players in a double bind that is not fun. They will want to retreat and rest but if there is any reason (such as time pressure) they must continue then they risk being frustrated and annoyed. It's not fun to enter a climactic battle and be barely able to contribute.

I've found that death spirals work best in games when you would not normally have to fight more then one battle before getting a full recovery.

Something that might work is something like an "injury die". Just proceed as normal but whenever you try an action, roll a d12. If the roll is a 1 then the action fails due to the injury. (And you can drop the die size for more severe injuries). This means that the character's effectiveness is not hugely affected - but every now and then the injury will be felt and the character will definitely want to get rid of it as soon as they can.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

@Helldritch

I think it is incoherent to describe a hit that deal as damage as a parried strike. If that's a hit what's a miss then?

Loss of hit points only has to mean that you are closer to dying as a result of the attack. It could be the parry that strains your arm a little and makes it less likely that a future parry will stop a blow in time. It might just be an attack that puts you on the back foot for a bit.

And as a corollary, a miss is an attack that doesn't increase your chance of losing that fight. For instance, in a fencing incident, I have been stabbed in the shoulder. The entry wound has healed up but there is still a scar at the exit wound. However in D&D terms, I probably lost no hit points: There wasn't that much blood loss, and while painful (particularly when my horrified partner instinctively pulled their sword out) it did not actually impair movement or use. It would be hard to imagine someone actually being incapacitated with multiple similar wounds, even for my lowly commoner self.

This links in with how I see hit point recovery in 5e. Hit point loss is rarely represented by actual injury, such as cuts and contusions, but when it is, the wound doesn't disappear after a short or long rest. After the first aid applied during a short rest, that cut is still there. After a long rest the character is still showing bruises. Its just a case that they have ceased to increase the chance that future attacks will incapacitate the character.
They probably still twinge a bit, and the character might complain about them, but in the adrenaline of a fight, they're not actually slowing them down at all.

Under this model, a miss is an attack that didn't exhaust him at all to defend against. No bruise, no strain, little or no sweat.

A hit that leaves the target at positive HP causes minor to trivial injury at most, but primarily wears them down and makes it harder for them to defend themselves from the eventual blow which truly gets through their guard- the one that reduces them to 0 HP.

Wow. How bad is this attacker, that their target doesn't even need to try to defend against their attacks? About as impressive as the cleric whose "miracles" are less effective than taking a nap, I suppose. Truly, this is an Age of Heroes.

Where did Mannahin say anything about the target not needing to try to defend against? They mention that an attack might not exhaust the defender to defend against it, but that is not the same thing.

 

[Helldritch]

@Cap'n Kobold
You see Hp just about as I see them. Until the very end, no real injury has been received.

And for @Saelorn
There are such things as overwhelming pain that makes you pass out but that in the end, did not do so much damage. I once was in a car accident and got lucky that the drunkard that hit me was not going a few more miles faster. My car was a total loss and they had all the trouble of the world to get me out. It took me three hours to recover and I even called my friend at work to tell him that I would not take him to work with me as I had an accident (I was on my way to pick him up). I called him at work... that is how much my mind was in a jumble. And yet, after a nice nap, a clearance from the hospital. I went to work the very next night (night shift...). Yep I was bruised, yes I was a bit stiff in the joints. But I was ok enough to work.

I am not a 10th level fighter, barb or whatever and I could do that. Is it so hard to imagine that a hero can do as much if not better?

 

[Don Durito]

Wow. How bad is this attacker, that their target doesn't even need to try to defend against their attacks? About as impressive as the cleric whose "miracles" are less effective than taking a nap, I suppose. Truly, this is an Age of Heroes.

This seems a bit over the top.

It's not too hard to imagine the difference between an attack that you can clearly see coming and neatly sidestep or parry and one that causes desperate scrambling and change of direction to avoid.

I can understand not liking this approach particulary (I'm not sure I really do and I use it myself), but it's not especially incoherent.

The difficult bit is determining what exactly a cure spell does in response to an attack that didn't actually hit - but there's really no way to conceptualise hp in a way that doesn't lead to inconsistencies somewhere.