D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[Don Durito]

I don't disagree, it's just noteworthy because all the other variant rules surrounding rest &recovery tend to be so bad

It's the shift from vancian(sp?) prepared each slot to prepared use any unused slot. Back then the cleric would prepare x cure light wounds Y cure moderate wounds etc in addition to the cool spells they want to use doing more than puttin magic bandaids on the party while now everyone who can & does prepare cure wounds has every unused spellslot available for either cure wounds or a spell that lets them do something cool without the old worry about preparing too many cure spells that will go unused & not enough do cool things spells so there is no need to do anything more than charge in & just recover everything before reaching a point where you might feel tight on spell slots.

That happened 20 years ago now.

The consequence of this has been the cleric has moved from it's traditional role into basically another wizard, rather then a secondary Fighter that offered support and healing.

It did mean in AD&D that you might need to retreat and spend an extra day or two preparing healing spells and them casting before going back into danger but that's little different in effect then changing the length of the long rest in 5e.

The difference is the lack of things in 5E that bypass hit points altogether.

 

[Umbran]

...but all traces of injury can heal naturally over the course of an hour". Neither of which is reasonable.

...but all MECHANICAL traces of injury can heal over...

But then, the only mechanical traces of injury were in the number of hit points, as D&D does not have death-spiral mechanics.

How you narrate the injury, and its traces, are another matter.

 

[tetrasodium]

That happened 20 years ago now.

The consequence of this has been the cleric has moved from it's traditional role into basically another wizard, rather then a secondary Fighter that offered support and healing.

It did mean in AD&D that you might need to retreat and spend an extra day or two preparing healing spells and them casting before going back into danger but that's little different in effect then changing the length of the long rest in 5e.

The difference is the lack of things in 5E that bypass hit points altogether.

20 years ago the cleric could do it over 2 rests or by doing things like "going back to town" to rest it off in an inn or something but doing it in the wild meant that the cleric would be feeling very hamstrung & wand another rest to have a normal spell list without a bunch of spent slots . Resting through the night didn't recover all hp for everyone so any random or not so random encounter over those two days could result in healing up bob but having 2-3 other PCs hurt a little (or a lot) depending on how dangerous the area was. The lack of things targeting stuff other than just hp is also a contributing factor yes

20 years ago the cleric could burn any unspent cure spells before recovering them yes, but they couldn't burn the slots dedicated to spells like* spirit guardians shield of faith remove curse death ward & so on to heal someone.

.* I can't remember all the go to non-healing spells for a cleric that far back so threw in some 5e examples

 

[cmad1977]

I mean... if you can’t figure out hit points... despite your he clear description of what they represent... other games are available.

 

[Don Durito]

20 years ago the cleric could do it over 2 rests or by doing things like "going back to town" to rest it off in an inn or something but doing it in the wild meant that the cleric would be feeling very hamstrung & wand another rest to have a normal spell list without a bunch of spent slots . Resting through the night didn't recover all hp for everyone so any random or not so random encounter over those two days could result in healing up bob but having 2-3 other PCs hurt a little (or a lot) depending on how dangerous the area was. The lack of things targeting stuff other than just hp is also a contributing factor yes

20 years ago the cleric could burn any unspent cure spells before recovering them yes, but they couldn't burn the slots dedicated to spells like* spirit guardians shield of faith remove curse death ward & so on to heal someone.

.* I can't remember all the go to non-healing spells for a cleric that far back so threw in some 5e examples

Yes. I said that. But you can achieve the same result in 5E without the bookkeeping by making long rests 36 hours*.

This is the first edition to explicitly call out that this is a dial that can be adjusted.


*And you can no longer stock up on wands of cure light wounds.

 

[Oofta]

If you can't criticize, then you can't optimize. This rule absurdity is an obvious mistake, and players deserve for it to be fixed. Ignoring the problem is not a solution.

I understand that it's an issue for you. It's never been anything other than a quick side conversation followed by a shrug (at most) for anyone I've played with in person.

If you have a suggested homebrew solution, feel free to post. If you're just complaining about something you personally don't like I'm free to say that it doesn't bother me or anyone I know and explain why.

 

[nevin]

Yes. I said that. But you can achieve the same result in 5E without the bookkeeping by making long rests 36 hours*.

This is the first edition to explicitly call out that this is a dial that can be adjusted.


*And you can no longer stuck up on wands of cure light wounds.

Or you can houserule whatever you want and play the way you like.

 

[nevin]

I understand that it's an issue for you. It's never been anything other than a quick side conversation followed by a shrug (at most) for anyone I've played with in person.

If you have a suggested homebrew solution, feel free to post. If you're just complaining about something you personally don't like I'm free to say that it doesn't bother me or anyone I know and explain why.

Honestly optimization is what ruins role playing games. For some people it overtakes everything else, and then your playing with Sheldon who's explaining to you how everything should be configured and in what order to do everything.

 

[Don Durito]

Or you can houserule whatever you want and play the way you like.

Changing the length of rests is explicitly called out in the DMG.

It's like complaining that a computer game is too easy when you insist on playing it on medium difficulty rather than ramping up to hard.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

But then, the only mechanical traces of injury were in the number of hit points, as D&D does not have death-spiral mechanics.

Yes, hit point damage is the only mechanic to track injury. That's why it's important that they do a good job of it. Hit Point mechanics that don't track injury would be entirely pointless.

 

[Oofta]

Changing the length of rests is explicitly called out in the DMG.

It's like complaining that a computer game is too easy when you insist on playing it on medium difficulty rather than ramping up to hard.

I use the week or more long rest, healing is part of it. As is pacing and story.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes. I said that. But you can achieve the same result in 5E without the bookkeeping by making long rests 36 hours*.

This is the first edition to explicitly call out that this is a dial that can be adjusted.


*And you can no longer stock up on wands of cure light wounds.

"stock up on wands of clw" only worked if the shopkeeper didn't say "no I don't have any more to sell" or similar. Changing the duration of rests will have an effect yes, but that causes a lot of other problems de to how many spells/abilitys/etc have durations pegged to minute & hour(s) to say nothing of the fact that wotc decided to make short ret classes with the same abilities as long rest classes to be thrown out of balance or have their value changed when you start changing rest durations.

 

[Umbran]

Yes, hit point damage is the only mechanic to track injury. That's why it's important that they do a good job of it. Hit Point mechanics that don't track injury would be entirely pointless.

So, "good job" and "reasonable" are not necessarily equivalent, especially when we don't know whether you mean:
1) "reasonable - if we take the game mechanic to be explicitly exactly what happens in the narrative, and expect the narrative to be 'reasonable' for a world that has fire-breathing dragons the size of houses in it,"
2) "reasonable - it creates gameplay that's generally accepted to be a positive experience," or
3) "reasonable - it matches my personal desires, which may not be 1 or 2".

 

[Don Durito]

"stock up on wands of clw" only worked if the shopkeeper didn't say "no I don't have any more to sell" or similar. Changing the duration of rests will have an effect yes, but that causes a lot of other problems de to how many spells/abilitys/etc have durations pegged to minute & hour(s) to say nothing of the fact that wotc decided to make short ret classes with the same abilities as long rest classes to be thrown out of balance or have their value changed when you start changing rest durations.

You get some inconsistencies yes. And they should have been called out, but resolving them is trivial.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

So, "good job" and "reasonable" are not necessarily equivalent, especially when we don't know whether you mean:
1) "reasonable - if we take the game mechanic to be explicitly exactly what happens in the narrative, and expect the narrative to be 'reasonable' for a world that has fire-breathing dragons the size of houses in it,"

This is a role-playing game, where the mechanics of the game reflect the reality of the game world, so obviously 1. Gameplay and personal preferences would require meta-gaming, which is illegal, and explicitly called out in the book as such.

The setting establishes the premise, with the dragons and magic and whatnot, and areas not explained as deviant should conform to our expectations (based on reality, or genre convention, or whatever) . If this is a world where you can kill someone with an arrow by not hitting them with it, then they need to say that. If this is a world where you can be injured by an arrow, but the wound heals on its own within an hour, then they need to say that. Otherwise, the game designers have failed spectacularly to tell us why reality is acting so unexpectedly here.

 

[Oofta]

This is a role-playing game, where the mechanics of the game reflect the reality of the game world, so obviously 1. Gameplay and personal preferences would require meta-gaming, which is illegal, and explicitly called out in the book as such.

The setting establishes the premise, with the dragons and magic and whatnot, and areas not explained as deviant should conform to our expectations (based on reality, or genre convention, or whatever) . If this is a world where you can kill someone with an arrow by not hitting them with it, then they need to say that. If this is a world where you can be injured by an arrow, but the wound heals on its own within an hour, then they need to say that. Otherwise, the game designers have failed spectacularly to tell us why reality is acting so unexpectedly here.

So what, exactly, do you expect? The adventurer goes out, gets an arrow to the knee and has to spend the rest of their life as a town guard? The PC gets hit by a fireball and has to spend six months in a burn ward ... wait scratch that ... dies a horrible painful death weeks or months later as his burned skin blisters and becomes infected? Ooh, and just for grins maybe amputate that leg with the arrow because we don't have antibiotics and gangrene set in? That would be exciting.

It's action movie logic, not a reality simulator. No game can do everything.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

It's action movie logic, not a reality simulator. No game can do everything.

Great, so you take a rough hit, and you're fine a few days later. That's solid genre emulation, as we might expect. It's a far cry from the rules they give us, where you take a hit, and you can watch the wound close in real time.

 

[tetrasodium]

Great, so you take a rough hit, and you're fine a few days later. That's solid genre emulation, as we might expect. It's a far cry from the rules they give us, where you take a hit, and you can watch the wound close in real time.

Indeed. When drinking yourself towards alcohol poisoning has a consequence (hangover) that lasts longer than being mauled to an inch of your life due to stupidity.... something is out of wack & it's probably not the cask of high proof spirits you had last night.

 

[Oofta]

Great, so you take a rough hit, and you're fine a few days later. That's solid genre emulation, as we might expect. It's a far cry from the rules they give us, where you take a hit, and you can watch the wound close in real time.

Have you never seen a Die Hard movie? McClain should have been dead a dozen times over, wraps serious injuries that should take months of therapy and he's good to go. Or every movie/tv show where bullet wounds are healed by someone pulling the bullet out with a greasy pair of pliers they found lying on the floor*?

In any case, I'm done. Have a good one.

*The bullet is always like 2 inches beneath the skin, in reality the bullets are regularly left in because getting them out would cause more harm than good.

 

[Don Durito]

Lingering injuries + massive damage. There are options in the DMG that somewhat address these (they're not very good, but they're a starting point). Really, these options should have been a lot better so they could be used without having to houserule them into shape, but I really don't think you have ever been able to address injuries with hit points as written.

If a first level cleric can heal severe injuries then this has big consequences for the game world that I want to avoid

Personally I make it so that losing more than half your points in a single hit is a roll on the system shock table (add the lower of your Strength or Con to the roll). A total of under 5 is a lingering injury as well as what ever effect is on the table. A natural 1 is always a lingering injury.

For linguring injuries I use the table in the DMG, but I make them less severe on the one extreme (I remove the lose an arm or foot option) but more impactful on the other (can only be healed by magic is vague anway but I rule that means a lesser restoration spell). I have them acquired either from System Shock or from being reduced to 0. I also add levels of exhaustion for failing death saves (not from being reduced to 0 - and I make Exhaustion somewhat less crippling -1 to all rolls and -5 speed per level).

Yes this is houseruled (although done so using the tools in the DMG), but you've always had to houserule to achieve this.

If it didn't seem so necessary before I think it was probably more due to the effects of poison, petrification, negative levels, ability score damage etc.