D&D 5E The problem with 5e

[tetrasodium]

Have you never seen a Die Hard movie? McClain should have been dead a dozen times over, wraps serious injuries that should take months of therapy and he's good to go. Or every movie/tv show where bullet wounds are healed by someone pulling the bullet out with a greasy pair of pliers they found lying on the floor*?

In any case, I'm done. Have a good one.

*The bullet is always like 2 inches beneath the skin, in reality the bullets are regularly left in because getting them out would cause more harm than good.

We have seen different movies... I just checked it on hbo+. The ending of die hard has him limping on both feet, he's covered in blood, covered in superficial wounds, his mouth is kinda slack jaw from overexertion, & his wife is kinda half supporting a clearly injured man. The end of die hard 2 he's slightly better without the limp but clutching his wounded arm. That is not a man who looks like he's capable of going back to work as a cop in the morning in either case. Your talking about the hitpoints themselves in action not the makeup crew coming in to reshoot the opening scene. In both movies he does things he knows are dangerous things he doesn't & shouldn't want to do because of the high chance of lethality/severe injury so he goes in with a plan. Even if it's a threadbare plan with a lot of improvisation it's an attempt to be prepared & minimize the risk because John mcclain doesn' expect the makeup crew to fix it so he can reshoot it as he was during the opening scene. The end of die hard3 has him slightly better but samuel L jackso is kind of collapsed on the curb with LEOs checking on his fairly beat to hell condition.

 

[Oofta]

We have seen different movies... I just checked it on hbo+. The ending of die hard has him limping on both feet, he's covered in blood, covered in superficial wounds, his mouth is kinda slack jaw from overexertion, & his wife is kinda half supporting a clearly injured man. The end of die hard 2 he's slightly better without the limp but clutching his wounded arm. That is not a man who looks like he's capable of going back to work as a cop in the morning in either case. Your talking about the hitpoints themselves in action not the makeup crew coming in to reshoot the opening scene. In both movies he does things he knows are dangerous things he doesn't & shouldn't want to do because of the high chance of lethality/severe injury so he goes in with a plan. Even if it's a threadbare plan with a lot of improvisation it's an attempt to be prepared & minimize the risk because John mcclain doesn' expect the makeup crew to fix it so he can reshoot it as he was during the opening scene. The end of die hard3 has him slightly better but samuel L jackso is kind of collapsed on the curb with LEOs checking on his fairly beat to hell condition.

He hasn't had a long rest or any magical healing. If you want a rundown on how many times he should have died check out this link or the dozen other ones.

But I'm done talking about HP. They're stupid, they're dumb, they make no sense. But they work well enough for the game that we play and I've never seen an alternative that I would want to use.

 

[jgsugden]

Comic Books.

Problem solved.

What? You want me to explain? Comic Books isn't enough?

Le Sigh

In comic books, the hero is often attacked by forces bent on their destruction. Those forces fail 99.44% of the time. From the moment the battle begins, the question is not whether Comic Book Man will win, but "how" he will win. However, knowing the hero will win tends to be pretty boring, and clever victories only go so far to hold interest. To keep it interesting, comic writers have to give us stakes where we can believe the hero will lose - even if we know they will not die. TO know they can lose, at times they must lose. Thus, we have our heroes protecting, chasing, saving, etc... while engaged in battle. They might fail to protect the innocent citizens. They might fail to catch the escaping Evil Dr. Villain. They might not save their significant other from a fall (SWIK SNAP!).

In D&D, I often hear DMs saying they feel the need to make every battle deadly just to keep it interesting. If it isn't deadly, it is boring. These DMs can benefit from the lessons of the comics, and realize that there are ways to win and lose without it being about life and death.

Encounter 1: 2 Goblins guard the gate. Can the PCs deal with them before they raise the alarm? If not, they get a tougher encounter.
Encounter 2: Some goblins and a worg are arguing over which of them gets to eat the prisoners. The PCs have to act quickly to free the prisoners before they are killed. Deception and might are both potential options, here.
Encounter 3: The PCs spot the returning tribe and are surprised to see that there are far too many goblins to fight. They have 3 rounds to get themselves, and the rescued prisoners, into one (or more) of the alternate escape routes.
Encounter 4: Chase seen through the alternate exit, with the PCs figuring out how to cross barriers and create more barriers behind them.
Encounter 5: They exit from the back entrance to the lair and decide whether to flee by taking sleds down a mountainside, running along an icy trail, or taking the canoes into the river that runs along the mountain (hint, upcoming waterfall).
Encounter 6: A Chase scene battle in their selected escape route, with goblins trying to stop their escape more than trying to kill them, and the PCs being better off focusing on stopping the goblins from slowing their escape than trying to kill as many goblins as possible.

Outside of the PCs deciding to turn and fight in Encounter 3 there is no deadly combats in a session like that one, but it can be a lot of (railroady) fun. It is a one shot I've run many times, and it is usually a hit. You can do the same thing in a more sandbox game, although it is a bit harder and relies upon you having more scenarios at the ready and the skill to set up, plug and play them.

 

[Puddles]

On the topic of injuries, I would agree that the DMG injury chart is not great. I have my own custom injury chart and these are my tips for making your own.

• don’t make the results permanent. Instead of “losing a leg”, have them suffer a broken bone or a sprained muscle. Players won’t thank you for slowly disfiguring their characters. Most of the results on the DMG table would cause a low level character to retire. Even the worse results on my table heal over time.
• have non-results on your injury chart too (‘full recovery’). It makes the roll more fun if there’s a chance to avoid it.
• I even have good results on my injury chart (‘miraculous recovery’), players can earn inspiration if they roll the highest result.
• think about what experiences and role-playing opportunities you can give your players from the table. I have several results that notch weapons, or puncture armour/shields, so players have to service them from time to time in town - or scavenge in the dungeon. Both cool things that you normally don’t get to do in 5e.

 

[Minigiant]

The main issue with injuries is that they usually lead to death spirals. The 4 common types of D&D adventure pacing:

1. Set Pieces
2. Ping-Ponging
3. Long Grind
4. Scheduled Attrition

are seriously harmed by death spirals.

 

[Don Durito]

Comic Books.

Problem solved.

What? You want me to explain? Comic Books isn't enough?

Le Sigh

In comic books, the hero is often attacked by forces bent on their destruction. Those forces fail 99.44% of the time. From the moment the battle begins, the question is not whether Comic Book Man will win, but "how" he will win. However, knowing the hero will win tends to be pretty boring, and clever victories only go so far to hold interest. To keep it interesting, comic writers have to give us stakes where we can believe the hero will lose - even if we know they will not die. TO know they can lose, at times they must lose. Thus, we have our heroes protecting, chasing, saving, etc... while engaged in battle. They might fail to protect the innocent citizens. They might fail to catch the escaping Evil Dr. Villain. They might not save their significant other from a fall (SWIK SNAP!).

In D&D, I often hear DMs saying they feel the need to make every battle deadly just to keep it interesting. If it isn't deadly, it is boring. These DMs can benefit from the lessons of the comics, and realize that there are ways to win and lose without it being about life and death.

Encounter 1: 2 Goblins guard the gate. Can the PCs deal with them before they raise the alarm? If not, they get a tougher encounter.
Encounter 2: Some goblins and a worg are arguing over which of them gets to eat the prisoners. The PCs have to act quickly to free the prisoners before they are killed. Deception and might are both potential options, here.
Encounter 3: The PCs spot the returning tribe and are surprised to see that there are far too many goblins to fight. They have 3 rounds to get themselves, and the rescued prisoners, into one (or more) of the alternate escape routes.
Encounter 4: Chase seen through the alternate exit, with the PCs figuring out how to cross barriers and create more barriers behind them.
Encounter 5: They exit from the back entrance to the lair and decide whether to flee by taking sleds down a mountainside, running along an icy trail, or taking the canoes into the river that runs along the mountain (hint, upcoming waterfall).
Encounter 6: A Chase scene battle in their selected escape route, with goblins trying to stop their escape more than trying to kill them, and the PCs being better off focusing on stopping the goblins from slowing their escape than trying to kill as many goblins as possible.

Outside of the PCs deciding to turn and fight in Encounter 3 there is no deadly combats in a session like that one, but it can be a lot of (railroady) fun. It is a one shot I've run many times, and it is usually a hit. You can do the same thing in a more sandbox game, although it is a bit harder and relies upon you having more scenarios at the ready and the skill to set up, plug and play them.

This is a good example of how to do encounters that are not super tough and not a waste of time.

There just needs to be a meaningful decision point.

"4 goblins attack" is a failure.

 

[robus]

The problem IMHO seems to be that they weren't clear on how the CR system works. The CR system seems to be designed for a group of 4 newbies with no magic, feats or a well balanced class.

I think I agree, it’s much easier to turn knobs up with experience, than to turn knobs down with inexperience. The game encourages play by all comers and expects DMs to adapt to their players to obtain the play feel they desire. (If that makes any sense?)

 

[tetrasodium]

He hasn't had a long rest or any magical healing. If you want a rundown on how many times he should have died check out this link or the dozen other ones.

But I'm done talking about HP. They're stupid, they're dumb, they make no sense. But they work well enough for the game that we play and I've never seen an alternative that I would want to use.

That's narration by the gm of the encounters themselves & such a completely different topic that I have to wonder if your playing devils advocate or just not following the discussion about how the long rest recover all hp & cure wounds burn all unused spell slots before recovering them with one spell prepped trivializes the threat of HP attrition to the point of causing negative side effects. In other news though, It's great that you've decided to stop confusing the issue with a totally different topic.

 

[Retreater]

Why does it matter? I mean, I could fit the same number of encounters into a single day if I wanted to, the alternate rest rules just change pacing. I do it because exploration/interaction is a big part of my games and I don't want to feel like I have to run a scenario like the old "24" TV series every time.

Because most GMs IME don't alter the number of encounters per day under the variant. They just expect you to be tough and power through it. In this case marital characters are far better suited for play that isn't defined by long rests.

 

[Don Durito]

Because most GMs IME don't alter the number of encounters per day under the variant. They just expect you to be tough and power through it. In this case marital characters are far better suited for play that isn't defined by long rests.

That seems odd. All my experience is that most GMs don't reach the intended number of encounters under the default rest.

I don't know why martial characters would be so much better suited. They have the same number of hit dice and while they have more hit points they tend to get hit more often.

And casters have cantrips.

I suppose it makes a bigger difference at lower levels where casters has fewer spells.

(Really one of the great difficulties of balancing D&D is the fact that spell slots grow both more numerous and more powerful)

 

[Garthanos]

The main issue with injuries is that they usually lead to death spirals. The 4 common types of D&D adventure pacing:

1. Set Pieces
2. Ping-Ponging
3. Long Grind
4. Scheduled Attrition

are seriously harmed by death spirals.

Party level death spirals are also pains ... a hero goes down and that mucks with offensive ability so much that... boom

 

[Retreater]

I don't know why martial characters would be so much better suited. They have the same number of hit dice and while they have more hit points they tend to get hit more often.

Better AC, better hp, likely better chances to hit, better ability to do damage when compared to cantrips. Besides, I don't want to play a character that can only do one moderately cool thing a week.
Most GMs who have used this in my games do so almost completely because they don't like the speed of HP recovery. Simply change that, and leave the powers of casters alone.

 

[Oofta]

Better AC, better hp, likely better chances to hit, better ability to do damage when compared to cantrips. Besides, I don't want to play a character that can only do one moderately cool thing a week.
Most GMs who have used this in my games do so almost completely because they don't like the speed of HP recovery. Simply change that, and leave the powers of casters alone.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I do it for attrition and balance of recharge vs non recharge as well. Of course I also house rule that any spell that has duration of more than half an hour is multiplied by five. It seems to work reasonably well and keeps nova rounds to a minimum.

I could just have the feces hit the rotational air movement device over a 24 hour period if I didn't use the alternate rule, I don't see why it would be much different because I would still throw the same number of encounters. I just think spreading out over multiple days makes for better pacing.

My players don't mind once they got used to the concept. YMMV of course.

 

[Retreater]

I could just have the feces hit the rotational air movement device over a 24 hour period if I didn't use the alternate rule, I don't see why it would be much different because I would still throw the same number of encounters. I just think spreading out over multiple days makes for better pacing.

For my pacing I don't like having characters spend multiple days with nothing exciting happening. And if you're just hand-waving "three days pass with nothing occurring, now on the third day, roll initiative," then what's the point of changing anything?

 

[Oofta]

That's narration by the gm of the encounters themselves & such a completely different topic that I have to wonder if your playing devils advocate or just not following the discussion about how the long rest recover all hp & cure wounds burn all unused spell slots before recovering them with one spell prepped trivializes the threat of HP attrition to the point of causing negative side effects. In other news though, It's great that you've decided to stop confusing the issue with a totally different topic.

I have no idea what you're talking about. D&D is not a reality simulator, it makes compromises all over the place to make the game enjoyable for as many people as practical. You can't please everyone, and I'm not sure I've ever seen you say much of anything positive, but obviously it does work for a lot of people and game designers. If it didn't work for the latter, we wouldn't have seen HP (and okay until 0 with easy recovery) adopted by the majority of FPS games.

When it comes to HP, like several other aspects of the game you have choices

• Just ignore it. It's a game.
• Variation of the above: it's action movie logic. Yes, John McClane is beat up at the end of Die Hard but he should have at least been in a hospital. It's a common trope that wounds that should debilitate people are a minor inconvenience that they get around. Break an arm? Hit people with your cast until that becomes inconvenient and then just remove the cast. Bullet wound? Removing it heals you. Bleeding out? Cauterize it.
• It's magic. People have inherent magical healing and don't even realize it as anything unusual.
• Change the rest rule so rests take longer. People still recover faster than they should, but it's a little more believable.
• Change the narrative. The arrow doesn't stick into your knee, it grazes it. HP represents strains, contusions, luck, and (perhaps most important) plot armor.

I do a combination of the above. You can always house rule if you want (or use lingering injuries, etc.), I just haven't seen any that would add to the enjoyment of my games.

Of course you can just complain about it endlessly every time the topic comes up, but I don't see the point. It's been a feature of D&D for a while now, it's popular, and it's not going to change any time soon.

 

[Mannahnin]

I agree with everything else, but a round is still only six seconds long, and an action isn't even everything you can do over the course of those six seconds.

Of course, I also rule that a healing potion is like a can of soda rather than a shot, because it's supposed to feel significant.

Several days later...

 

[DND_Reborn]

For my pacing I don't like having characters spend multiple days with nothing exciting happening. And if you're just hand-waving "three days pass with nothing occurring, now on the third day, roll initiative," then what's the point of changing anything?

For my part, excitement and adventures don't happen every day. Often the pacing of the story demands time to develop as things unfold.

You might hand-wave away a month of overland travel in the same manner as hand-waving a month of time for healing and rest. If you see no difference, does your party "teleport" to their destination instead of traveling there? The result is the same: you arrive at your destination, but the idea of it taking a month to get there is more true to the story (unless you are high enough level to teleport or have a setting with teleportation circles shrug).

 

[DEFCON 1]

I always find it funny when someone makes the point "the books HAVE to tell us X".

No. No they don't. They don't have to justify anything. It's a game. A game that is representative of genre and entertainment we have all experienced in the past. And game designers will always absolutely shortchange long-winded explanations when we players can use our own past knowledge of other games and other entertainment and genre to come up with justifiable reasons for ourselves beyond what they provide for us.

Why do we have Hit Points? Because THE GAME needs to come up with a point system to determine when one side has won. That's all. That's entirely the reason why there are Hit Points. We need to know who wins the game. Now that being said... the game and its designers will also layer a bit of story and narrative on top of that point scoring to give it a bit of drama because the game includes story and narrative as part of its reason for existing. But NEVER think that the fluff is the important part for why Hit Points exists. It never has been. It's ALWAYS been about keeping score.

Which means that once the designers have layered a narrative on top of Hit Points that they are okay with... their job is done. This is the game that they have made. And you as a player either play it as-is... you make your own changes so that the narrative and scorekeeping are more to your liking... or you just choose not to play the game altogether if you don't like either or both parts of it.

But it's not the game nor the designer's responsibility to do any more than that.

 

[nevin]

Role playing doesn't matter what system you use. Every single one of them will require modifications or tweaks to fit you and your party.

quit gripeing at the Devs and just figure out the owners manual tweak it so it's your car and drive.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Several days later...

LOL funny video.

Seriously, though, drinking a potion during combat should be an ordeal:

1. Get the potion out of a pouch, backpack, untie it from your belt, pull it from a pocket, etc. I doubt PCs are just carrying them in their hands. If the potion is in your backpack or pouch, you technically have to access that item first, which also takes more time than pulling it from a pocket (depending on where the pocket is, of course).

2. Untie or un-stopper the potion. Remember, these containers hold magical liquid, they should be well secured/closed to prevent slippage or evaporation. You don't want your potion to spill when you do a tumble or something while dodging an attack.

3. Drink the potion, which itself takes time.

4. If you have weapon and shield (or holding things in both hands, such as a weapon and lantern, etc.), you will likely also have to drop or sheath your weapon (or other item) before you can get the potion out.

5. Oh, and doing all of this while possibly attempting to defend yourself by dodging, parrying, using a shield, or whatever.

Sometimes people compare the time to drinking a shot or jugging a soda/beer. Well, the problem with that is a shot glass is open-mouthed so there is plenty of room for air to replace the liquid. As the video showed, in a "close-mouthed" container, that isn't the case and the air has to go in to replace the liquid--so it takes a bit longer.

When you consider all these factors, a DM is generous simply by allowing the "get the potion out" free object interaction and then use an object action to drink the potion. Depending on where the potion is stored, it could require at least another full round just to get access to the potion and then another round to open and drink it, especially if you have something already held in both hands (common IME for pretty much most PCs except maybe wizards and sorcerer casters).