The problem with Distant Advantage

[UltimaGabe]

I started this in another thread a couple days ago, but I figured it'd get more attention in its own thread.

Distant Advantage
Benefit: You gain combat advantage for ranged or area attacks against any enemy flanked by your allies.

This feat seems nice, but there's a serious problem here that I see that seems to have gone unnoticed. This feat actually makes it easier to flank someone at range than it is to flank in melee.

Listen to what I mean. If two allies are flanking a medium-sized target, a melee character cannot, under any circumstances, also flank said target without another ally. Therefore, if they don't have any powers that allow Combat Advantage, they can't get it, no matter what they do. Meanwhile, the Ranger with this feat can be sitting in the back, completely out of harms way, getting CA on every attack.

Surely this can't be the intent. It should be AT LEAST as easy for a melee character to gain CA against a target as for a ranged character, since the melee character is putting themselves right up in melee range of the enemy. And yet this feat completely undermines that. It almost makes it pointless to try and make a melee rogue.

If they had worded the feat differently, such as, "You gain combat advantage to any attacks against any enemy flanked by your allies", that would be different, because the third wheel in the above example would still be able to flank, even without an ally on the opposite side, because the enemy was already flanked by two allies. It would give the melee character the same benefit as the ranged character.

And yet that's not how the feat is worded. Anyone else find a problem with that?

 

[DracoSuave]

Here's the reality of the situation.

In order to flank in melee, you require one other co-operative person to flank with you.

In order to use Distant Advantage, you require -two- other co-operative people to help you out.

Given that you can potentially get combat advantage easily by the act of 'group with a leader', this feat requires far more help from your group than flanking in melee.

In other words, unless two melee guys are getting combat advantage by flanking, you get -nothing.- It is not easier for you, because you're -as dependant- on melee flanking as a melee flanker.

It's often easier to just bring a warlord or a bard or a shaman than it is to rely on this feat.

 

[keterys]

It's not easier - it just works in one situation that it doesn't work as well in melee.

The funny thing is that I actually thought when first playing 4e, based on something the DM said, that they'd changed 'Flanked' to a condition that gave combat advantage, and that it would apply to all melee and ranged by default once you set it up. I realized otherwise on reading the rules packet, but I did think it was a pretty neat idea at the time.

 

[DracoSuave]

On further consideration, I'd not consider this feat as making melee rogues obsolete, but rather making melee rogues more viable.

See, some people (incorrectly) believe flanking and combat advantage as something rogues do. So if you don't have a melee rogue, you'll see -less- flanking in some groups.

Now, if I were a ranged character, and there's a melee rogue in the group, then I can -expect- flanking to occur. So taking this feat is a good +2 to hit bonus for powers I'd not normally get to buff the attack on. Suddenly the melee rogue isn't just a damage engine, but is enabling -me- to hit more often as well.

Group Synergy = Win

 

[Mengu]

On further consideration, I'd not consider this feat as making melee rogues obsolete, but rather making melee rogues more viable.

See, some people (incorrectly) believe flanking and combat advantage as something rogues do. So if you don't have a melee rogue, you'll see -less- flanking in some groups.

I fully agree. Distant advantage is not a rogue feat. It is a warlock, archer ranger, or sorcerer feat.

Vexing Flanker is a rogue feat, and with that one feat, your allies no longer need Distant Advantage and can train it out for something else.

 

[DracoSuave]

I fully agree. Distant advantage is not a rogue feat. It is a warlock, archer ranger, or sorcerer feat.

Vexing Flanker is a rogue feat, and with that one feat, your allies no longer need Distant Advantage and can train it out for something else.

I like the way you think.

 

[Lauberfen]

I'm inclined to agree. I was considering taking distant advantage for my dagger wielding rogue, but then I realised this was silly. Any time when my allies are flanking, I can jump in there as well, and with some clever shifting we can have flanking when we each strike (tried and tested over several groups for many levels, just takes a little thought). So I'll be leaving it for my rogue, at least for now.

 

[Runestar]

So CA is pretty much now a given in any party. Cool...

I wonder if this means that future monsters will have this +2 to-hit factored into their defenses...

 

[Solodan]

They already do, hence expertise feats...

 

[Wardo]

Is it just me, or have more than half the people in this thread ignored the OP's original point? He isn't complaining about Distant Advantages power, he's wondering why the feat only applies to ranged attacks. Why does it allow a ranger to get CA when two of his buddies are flanking a medium creature, but it doesn't allow the fighter or melee rogue to do the same thing with the same two buddies?

I think it's a great point, and not something I had noticed. Now that it's been pointed out, it's really strange.