The problem with Distant Advantage

[DracoSuave]

Agreed. On the other hand, a Beast Master ranger who focuses on ranged attacks -would- take this feat because he brings his own flanking. The feat is strictly a 'depends on the party' feat.

It is neither 'must have' or 'must not have' which is -exactly- what you want a feat to be. The difference between this and some other feats is that it -does- rely on the entire group, so in terms of theorycraft it's not a feat you can simply Char-Op for. This is more of a flaw in Char-Op mentality; I'd rather see Group-Op mentalities in play for 4th edition.

 

[KarinsDad]

Based on a combined 18 levels of this working well, heres how:

You have something like this

1 E 2
...3

1 attacks, with combat advantage. 2 does likewise, then shifts:

...2
1 E
...3

3 Attacks, with CA, then shifts:

...2
1 E 3

1 attacks with CA, then shifts:

2
E 3
1
and so, ad infinitum. Considering the fighte/warden is on your side, this is easy, and can generally be managed any time you can maintain flanking. Hell, I wasn't even using the diagonals to flank on.

You also were not considering difficult terrain or walls or other reasons (like monster marks or other powers) that this tactic will not always work.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

You also were not considering difficult terrain or walls or other reasons (like monster marks or other powers) that this tactic will not always work.

Yes, but those factors can also eliminate any sort of flanking if used correctly. After all, you can't flank someone standing in a corner, can you?

 

[KarinsDad]

Yes, but those factors can also eliminate any sort of flanking if used correctly. After all, you can't flank someone standing in a corner, can you?

Those factors rarely elminate any sort of flanking.

Look at a chessboard. It's equivalent to a large room.

It has 36 squares where a 3 PC flank can occur unimpeded without pillars or walls or difficult terrain. Best case scenario: 56.25% of the time.

It has 24 squares where flank can only occur for two combatants. Best case scenario: 37.5% of the time.

It has 4 corners where flank cannot occur for two combatants. Best case scenario: 6.25% of the time.

So yes, one might have close to 50% of the time where more than one flank can occur, but one also has close to 50% (or more based on terrain) of the time where more than one flank cannot occur.


Additionally, 4E adventure modules (and the DMG suggestions) tend to have rooms that are smaller than 8x8 squares and have interesting terrain features.

So, it is typically even less possible for more than one flank to occur in the 4E modules, but often possible to have a single flank. Unless the monsters are stupid and lured out in the middle of a room, having multiple flanks should not be a consistent viable tactic in most encounters.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Those factors rarely elminate any sort of flanking.

Look at a chessboard. It's equivalent to a large room.

It has 36 squares where a 3 PC flank can occur unimpeded without pillars or walls or difficult terrain. Best case scenario: 56.25% of the time.

It has 24 squares where flank can only occur for two combatants. Best case scenario: 37.5% of the time.

It has 4 corners where flank cannot occur for two combatants. Best case scenario: 6.25% of the time.

So yes, one might have close to 50% of the time where more than one flank can occur, but one also has close to 50% (or more based on terrain) of the time where more than one flank cannot occur.


Additionally, 4E adventure modules (and the DMG suggestions) tend to have rooms that are smaller than 8x8 squares and have interesting terrain features.

So, it is typically even less possible for more than one flank to occur in the 4E modules, but often possible to have a single flank. Unless the monsters are stupid and lured out in the middle of a room, having multiple flanks should not be a consistent viable tactic in most encounters.

I won't check your math here, I simply assume you got it right.

If players multi flank a target they might as well be in a position to get flanked (or multi flanked) as well.
And standing next to a wall, will do you no good if you can't reach an enemy by doing this.

And with higher charlvls the options to often gain CA even while not flanking rises.

I don't see why this feat is a problem.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Those factors rarely elminate any sort of flanking.

Look at a chessboard. It's equivalent to a large room.

...

So, it is typically even less possible for more than one flank to occur in the 4E modules, but often possible to have a single flank. Unless the monsters are stupid and lured out in the middle of a room, having multiple flanks should not be a consistent viable tactic in most encounters.

There are usually incentives or restrictions that encourage action in the centre of a room, heavily distorting actual play vs your examples. Not least is that flanks are advantageous for the monsters themselves and the monsters typically outnumber the PCs.

 

[keterys]

The large creature my party just fought had six people (well, 5 and a pet) flanking it... the only person left out was the archer.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

The large creature my party just fought had six people (well, 5 and a pet) flanking it... the only person left out was the archer.

I bet that Archer was really wishing that he had Distant Advantage.

 

[Lauberfen]

I was factoring in all the various reasons why flanking dance might not be possible. Hence why I stated that this can be achieved most of the time when you could otherwise flank, and attempted to give an impression of how much my party manages to achieve this.

In my experience it's common for it to be impossible to flank, for anyone, such as when you are fighting a wall of monsters (happens all too much to us). Or bizarre stuff like kobold dragonshields (one key reason to escape low levels). However, as stated before, in my experience flanking is usually an option, and then dancing is almost always an option too.

 

[DracoSuave]

When Flanking is hard, that's when you drag out the forced movement. Monster not where you want? Put the monster where you want with Pull or Slide brand movements.