The problem with elves (question posed)
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
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billd91
Not your screen monkey (he/him) 🇺🇦🇵🇸🏳️⚧️
Edena_of_Neith said:
Tolkien "saw" nothing with respect to any inevitable chain of events that would see elves exterminated other than the doom they brought on themselves by following the prideful and vengeful Feanorians. The elves of Middle Earth weren't exactly pacifists. The transition Tolkien wrote about from the elven paradise of Middle Earth to the dominance of the Second Born has more to do with an extended transition from a paradise like Eden into the mundane world.
The_Gneech
Explorer
Edena_of_Neith said:
Because you don't like elves and are hoping somebody will play one so you can stick it to them? That's my first guess.
Do you mind-control paladins to eat babies and then have them lose their paladinhood, too? ;P
-The Gneech
Kae'Yoss
First Post
I would play one. I don't buy into the part where elves cannot adapt to anything. They might be CG, in tune with nature, and appreciative of the arts, but that doesn't mean that they can't fight back.
In fact, your usual elf in your average D&D campaign world is quite warlike - they get free proficiency with swords and bows, for example, they have several specific roles that are not exactly pacifistic.
And you wrote it yourself: They retain the vigour and hot blood of a human young adult for centuries. That doesn't exactly sound like they would sit back and remain as they were when humans invade. Your average young adult is still quite good at adapting.
And they're CG. That means that they are in favour of change. I wouldn't say that this means that they're extremely pacifistic, never killing anyone or anything. They are linked to nature, and nature kills. They will eat meat (though they will not take more than they need), and they will defend their home against predators.
Despite the old idea that elves had their golden age a long time ago and are now in a decline (which the FR have recently reversed: The Retreat is over, there have been some major victories, and so on), I don't see why that has to be the case in every single world.
In fact, I could see a world where elves instead of humans are the dominant race, having retained their vast realms they had founded so long before. Instead of the same old story, that would be a refreshing change.
The culprit in this situation is, I think, Tolkien: His elves, though they were very powerful once (and whose personal power is still above that of humans, especially if it's a Light Elf or even Noldor), have had their time in the First Age, and parts of the Second, but by the Fourth Age (which started just after the LotR books), they are mostly removed from the world, which is firmly in the humans' hands.
Since so many concepts in D&D were borrowed from Tolkien and others, they took this part of elven history with them into the Realms, and probably many other settings (since humans are usually depicted as the dominant race).
Nah. They prove nothing except that they're creepy. Creepy guys come in all kinds and flavours. Creepy guy who always plays a hot elf chick. CGWAP an elven supremist, CGWAP who plays a completely antisocial elf twink. CGWAP a paladin who's a pain in the butt for everyone else, CGWAP something that is the opposite of the other characters, tries to get them into trouble, tries to force others to eventually throw him out of the party.
As to the abilities: Some are a bit weird:
Agnakok: Tolkien had the idea of elves being immune to poison and disease, and I could see that. The adaptability to survive in extreme environments like exteme sunshine and the like could also be due to their partly magical/supernatural anatomy.
But the part about bugs not flying into their mouth sounds a bit much. Sure, the idea of a hero that is above invonveniances like flea bites sounds good, but I wouldn't go quite that far as to say that the world will prevent them from harm. It may be in their pheromones or something like that, many creatures might be disinclined to pester them on purpose, but I'd say that bugs do fly in their mouth if they happen to be in the way, or that sharp rocks and the like can still cut them if they're not careful (but give them a racial bonus to survival in natural surroundings)
Aging: The times are a bit long, but that should not really matter for an adventurer (player character) in a campaign that will last one game year or so.
Immune to poisons and the like: As I said, that can work. The gods that created them had the foresight to make them so that these things won't bother them.
Immune to animal attacks: Now that one's weird again. I'd replace it by some racial bonuses to survival, as well as an animal empathy - like ability. This would make them less likely to be attacked by animals (because they could avoid angering them, and because they could calm them down), and avoid dangerous plants, but no blanket negation of these abilities.
Elfsight: Very keen eyes that are not easily blinded sounds okay, as does the darkvision. I would cut out the infravision, though.
Appearance: The +2 Cha is okay - in fact, I could see adding that to normal 3.5e elves without a level adjustment - that -2 Con is nasty. They're usually described as quite handsome, so this would only fit.
All in all, the abilities how I described them would probably be a bit strong for normal +0 LA (the original ones would almost certainly be +1 or maybe even better), but it might still work out - dwarves aren't exactly weak, either.
How strong are the other races in your campaign?
In fact, your usual elf in your average D&D campaign world is quite warlike - they get free proficiency with swords and bows, for example, they have several specific roles that are not exactly pacifistic.
And you wrote it yourself: They retain the vigour and hot blood of a human young adult for centuries. That doesn't exactly sound like they would sit back and remain as they were when humans invade. Your average young adult is still quite good at adapting.
And they're CG. That means that they are in favour of change. I wouldn't say that this means that they're extremely pacifistic, never killing anyone or anything. They are linked to nature, and nature kills. They will eat meat (though they will not take more than they need), and they will defend their home against predators.
Despite the old idea that elves had their golden age a long time ago and are now in a decline (which the FR have recently reversed: The Retreat is over, there have been some major victories, and so on), I don't see why that has to be the case in every single world.
In fact, I could see a world where elves instead of humans are the dominant race, having retained their vast realms they had founded so long before. Instead of the same old story, that would be a refreshing change.
The culprit in this situation is, I think, Tolkien: His elves, though they were very powerful once (and whose personal power is still above that of humans, especially if it's a Light Elf or even Noldor), have had their time in the First Age, and parts of the Second, but by the Fourth Age (which started just after the LotR books), they are mostly removed from the world, which is firmly in the humans' hands.
Since so many concepts in D&D were borrowed from Tolkien and others, they took this part of elven history with them into the Realms, and probably many other settings (since humans are usually depicted as the dominant race).
rgard said:
Nah. They prove nothing except that they're creepy. Creepy guys come in all kinds and flavours. Creepy guy who always plays a hot elf chick. CGWAP an elven supremist, CGWAP who plays a completely antisocial elf twink. CGWAP a paladin who's a pain in the butt for everyone else, CGWAP something that is the opposite of the other characters, tries to get them into trouble, tries to force others to eventually throw him out of the party.
As to the abilities: Some are a bit weird:
Agnakok: Tolkien had the idea of elves being immune to poison and disease, and I could see that. The adaptability to survive in extreme environments like exteme sunshine and the like could also be due to their partly magical/supernatural anatomy.
But the part about bugs not flying into their mouth sounds a bit much. Sure, the idea of a hero that is above invonveniances like flea bites sounds good, but I wouldn't go quite that far as to say that the world will prevent them from harm. It may be in their pheromones or something like that, many creatures might be disinclined to pester them on purpose, but I'd say that bugs do fly in their mouth if they happen to be in the way, or that sharp rocks and the like can still cut them if they're not careful (but give them a racial bonus to survival in natural surroundings)
Aging: The times are a bit long, but that should not really matter for an adventurer (player character) in a campaign that will last one game year or so.
Immune to poisons and the like: As I said, that can work. The gods that created them had the foresight to make them so that these things won't bother them.
Immune to animal attacks: Now that one's weird again. I'd replace it by some racial bonuses to survival, as well as an animal empathy - like ability. This would make them less likely to be attacked by animals (because they could avoid angering them, and because they could calm them down), and avoid dangerous plants, but no blanket negation of these abilities.
Elfsight: Very keen eyes that are not easily blinded sounds okay, as does the darkvision. I would cut out the infravision, though.
Appearance: The +2 Cha is okay - in fact, I could see adding that to normal 3.5e elves without a level adjustment - that -2 Con is nasty. They're usually described as quite handsome, so this would only fit.
All in all, the abilities how I described them would probably be a bit strong for normal +0 LA (the original ones would almost certainly be +1 or maybe even better), but it might still work out - dwarves aren't exactly weak, either.
How strong are the other races in your campaign?
Eldragon
First Post
No matter how hard I try, in just about every game that I run the elves turn into fascists bent on destroying the inferior races.
1 -- Elves are superior to other races in just about every way. (See Above Posts)
2 -- Proficiency in longsword and Longbow. (Easily trained troops with good weapons.)
3 -- Easily fed in the field on leaves (Field rations/logistics just got easier).
4 -- The other races keep taking elven lands (Casus Belli)
5 -- Powerful elven magic, passed down for millenia.
6 -- No sleep required, and can see in the dark. Natural Night fighters.
Therefore:
The Elves find they have no choice but to exterminate the inferior races with extreme prejudice.
1 -- Elves are superior to other races in just about every way. (See Above Posts)
2 -- Proficiency in longsword and Longbow. (Easily trained troops with good weapons.)
3 -- Easily fed in the field on leaves (Field rations/logistics just got easier).
4 -- The other races keep taking elven lands (Casus Belli)
5 -- Powerful elven magic, passed down for millenia.
6 -- No sleep required, and can see in the dark. Natural Night fighters.
Therefore:
The Elves find they have no choice but to exterminate the inferior races with extreme prejudice.
GreatLemur
Explorer
I think that after reading Edena_of_Neith's posts in this thread, I actually hate elves about twice as I previously did. I can't help but recall choice number five on the "Why do elves suck?" poll, right now.
Edena_of_Neith said:
Well, as you suggest, reality would intrude on them from the outside. So some local noble from Hyboria attacks the elves, kills a bunch, the rest flee into the woods and manage to hide.
At that point things are entirely different from how you describe. At that point they can start using their nightvision and alliances with the beasts to make life difficult for future interlopers into the forest. Being long-lived, they're unlikley to forget how dangerous humans are.
Plus, while the humans are busy "living in reality" (ie. hauling water, burying their relatives, fighting amongst each other and trying to heal from the plague), elves can hone their war skills, develop plans and magic. People with free time don't just sit around and stare at the wall - in fact, it's not uncommon that the fighting nobility is generally those persons with the most time on their hands. If you've had 800 years to practice archery, you're probably pretty good at it. Since we call all just eat leaves, then I don't have to have 90% of my population spend all it's time farming in order to feed a small elite to do it's fighting for it.
So after they've turned their forest into a fortress-maze of death-traps, they'd probably start expanding outward. Either magically control or bribe the local humans so that they have plenty of advanced warning of another incursion. Maybe blight the croplands of those who won't cooperate around the forest to give them a good buffer.
Ultimately, there's no reason that humans aren't as vulnerable to the same rivalries and greed that the elves are. Unless there's some sort of remarkable race-based animosity, there's no reason that having a bunch of powers suddenly becomes a disadvantage.
