The problem with elves (question posed)

[Kae'Yoss]

No matter how hard I try, in just about every game that I run the elves turn into fascists bent on destroying the inferior races.

You're just not trying hard enough. Or you have something basically wrong.

I have run, and been in, numerous games, and I have yet to see elves becoming (or being) fascists that want to destroy all other races, except maybe orcs (but then again, everyone would like to do that, including some orcs)

1 -- Elves are superior to other races in just about every way. (See Above Posts)

Note that this is the thread starter's opinion, not the core D&D assumption. They might be somewhat aloof (out of synch with the other races, who die way too quickly), but not necessarily hostile towards other races - not any more than other races, like humans or dwarves.

Tolkien depicted elves as superior to humans in most ways, but still they didn't want to exterminate everything, and in fact, they didn't manage to hold on to their dominant position.

2 -- Proficiency in longsword and Longbow. (Easily trained troops with good weapons.)

Being able to use weapons doesn't really mean that you use them to slaughter innocents. After all, several classes get proficiency in those weapons and a host of others as well. Dwarves, for example, have fighter as favoured weapon, and are usually said to be mor eof the physical persuasion, so quite a lot of dwarves will be able to use martial weapons, too. They don't go around exterminating everyone else.

4 -- The other races keep taking elven lands (Casus Belli)

Defending your home against invaders doesn't make you a fascist

Therefore:
The Elves find they have no choice but to exterminate the inferior races with extreme prejudice.

Now, there you completely lose me. being able to do something doesn't mean that you are forced to do it.

I think that after reading Edena_of_Neith's posts in this thread, I actually hate elves about twice as I previously did.

Because of one person's answer? Come on, you don't mean that.

If I hated everything that someone depicted in a way I don't like, I'd hate every single race and class in D&D, D&D in general (and most aspects in general), roleplaying (and all games), just about every concept and ideology ever presented to me, and, beyond that, pretty much everything.

I don't, and I don't.

 

[Mallus]

Playing an elf is an exercise in frustration and angst, no matter what powers you give them.

I've got some advice: stop extrapolating to the point you make elves unplayable.

Note that this advice holds true for just about every aspect of campaign world design. It's not just for elves anymore.

 

[Darklone]

No matter how hard I try, in just about every game that I run the elves turn into fascists bent on destroying the inferior races.

1 -- Elves are superior to other races in just about every way. (See Above Posts)
2 -- Proficiency in longsword and Longbow. (Easily trained troops with good weapons.)
3 -- Easily fed in the field on leaves (Field rations/logistics just got easier).
4 -- The other races keep taking elven lands (Casus Belli)
5 -- Powerful elven magic, passed down for millenia.
6 -- No sleep required, and can see in the dark. Natural Night fighters.

Therefore:
The Elves find they have no choice but to exterminate the inferior races with extreme prejudice.

You forgot archer attacks at night with low-light vision. Real deadly at low levels.

 

[GreatLemur]

Because of one person's answer? Come on, you don't mean that.

If I hated everything that someone depicted in a way I don't like, I'd hate every single race and class in D&D, D&D in general (and most aspects in general), roleplaying (and all games), just about every concept and ideology ever presented to me, and, beyond that, pretty much everything.

It's a question of quantity, I think. I've heard far more excruciatingly obnoxious takes on elves than decent ones. As far as I'm concerned, they're poisoned beyond being worth saving. And I'm pretty tired of the RPG assumption that every fantasy setting needs to have elves, orcs, and dragons in it, anyway--hell, even fantasy novels have gotten past that rut--so I haven't got a lot of investment in the concept to begin with.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I've got some advice: stop extrapolating to the point you make elves unplayable.

Note that this advice holds true for just about every aspect of campaign world design. It's not just for elves anymore.

So true. I can blow up the dwarven traits to make them antisocial, bloodthirsty drunkards, gnomes irresponsible tinkers who blow up the whole world regularly, halflings cleptomaniacs, and so on.

It's a question of quantity, I think. I've heard far more excruciatingly obnoxious takes on elves than decent ones.

I really start to think that there's a nasty world out there, and I'm living in the last decent place: I hear about stuff like this, and never experienced it, especially not in those dimensions. I did have a couple really obnoxious elves, but most of them were played by people who play everything in an annoying way. Most were quite okay.

And I'm pretty tired of the RPG assumption that every fantasy setting needs to have elves, orcs, and dragons in it, anyway

And dwarves, and mages, and so many other things.

The thing is: They're right there in the core books. It only makes sense that a lot of D&D fantasy settings has those PC races from the PHB, and most of the monsters from MM, and so on.

--hell, even fantasy novels have gotten past that rut--so I haven't got a lot of investment in the concept to begin with.

Well, I like it. For me, the Classics will always be in stile. Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Dragons, Magicians, sentient Luggages with hundreds of legs.

 

[William drake]

Playing an elf is an exercise in frustration and angst, no matter what powers you give them.

Well, I think your wrong, but that's not the point. I agree with what someone else wrote "if you dont want your players to play elves, then say it" you shouldn't just make a cross-the-board statment that takes up several pages of text to explain your oppinion of a mythos that's older then you, or any writer you quoted.


My opinion: the only reason that elves dont ever put the hurt on humans is this; they are of a higher breed, they've gone through the "we're going to fight and take" they are the wise, the platos' and aristotles of the world, in a race. But, but no means are they totally peaceful. As any wise people, violence has it's place. However, to an elf, it would be defense, and only to the point that they enemy sees the cost of their attempts. Their way of waring would be to show their might quickly with their ability to ben the laws of reality. I mean, what would an army of men do against an army of elves which could call down lightning and fireballs.

Another question. In some casses, elves live outside of humanity, because they simply can; like an alien race, they think we are quaint, and cute, like children or a dog. Something that hasn't yet "got it" but, they like us because their a a Few who understand. Also, being so wise and noble, the elves, as a people, later in their long lives, come to understand that the only way to understand one's life, is to play it out, fully, and so, I feel that later in their lives, they choose to die; or, allow it to happen so that it is over. To go on and on would be a human thing, not an elven thing.


Elves have always been seen as godlike, or angelic, I would think that for the most part humanity would be afraid of them, or atleast, weary.

You've talked about great authors, I would suggest you reread some of them to try and see what they were really talking about. In my readings, I've only found one author, the same that inspired Mr. Moorcock, the writer of "The Broken Sword" and in his book, the only reason that the elves were being pushed back and beaten by MEN, was the fact that they didn't watch them; they let them go uninspected, or met for so long that by the time the humans invaded the part of the world where the elves were, there were so many of them. In each villiage or castle that the humans came to, the elves were first kind, but then they were just out gunned.

You must understand the restrictions that each author gave to his/her elves. None were as powerful or with so wide-range as those in D&D, and that is where I think you've made a mistake. They two are not the same.


Game On

 

[moritheil]

Edena, it is so good to have you back. . .

Seconded.

Though, by way of counterpoint . . . Shevarash.

 

[PallidPatience]

And Wizzards.

 

[The Green Adam]

I don't know if I would play one or not. Like many of the early comments, I'm not certain I see why they are the way are or rather, what you mean to do by making the elves this way.

My last three campaigns (which were related to each other) were largely Elf-centric. The idea was that after the first campaign, one of some of my players played the sons and daughters of their Elven characters. This meant their Human counterparts were the great grandchildern of the previous characters in many cases.

My Elves look like D&D Elves on paper, but paper isn't what my games are about. They're about people. So we've developed an incredibly long and detailed culture and history for the Elves and PCs have to live with the good, the bad and the complex legacy of all they've learned.

Don't make'em not want Elves. Make Elves cool.

 

[shilsen]

Don't make'em not want Elves. Make Elves cool.

Listen to the smart man. The flavor that Edena is using for elves seems to me fairly uninspired, and the flavor and mechanics definitely don't seem to have a consistently necessary correlation.

I much prefer something like what Eberron did with the elves, making them focused on ancestor worship, but breaking up the forms of ancestor worship between the militant Valenar (who each seek to subsume themselves in and embody the spirit of an individual ancestor through their martial deeds) and the necromantic Aereni (who actually bring back and preserve a number of the deceased ancestors as undead counsellors to provide spiritual and other guidance to the community). Now those are elves with interesting flavor and mechanics.