The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[Halivar]

Diseases in the game. Things like Mummy Rot and Filth Fever. Again I ask, please show me where in the rules are the listing for cholera, bubonic plague, smallpox etc.

They don't exist unless you house-rule them in. In which case, they act however you want them to. There certainly aren't any rules suggesting elves get immunity from them (like I said, though, they will act like you want them to).

Now, as for spreading the mundane diseases that are listed, there are, in fact, rules for spreading them. In fact, you quoted the biggest two:

touches an item smeared with diseased matter, or consumes disease-tainted food or drink

These two alone cover how the majority of "real-world" diseases spread, so I expect SRD diseases to spread likewise. But again, that's my opinion, and I don't run your game. It's a logical inference if one wants it to be, that's all.

 

[gizmo33]

And since there are no real world elves - guess what - my assertions are no more or less credibility than anyone elses guess on elven economics.

I agree. However, using the real world helps address two different problems:

1. If something exists in the real world, then it can conceivably exist in a fantasy world.
2. If the real world conditions help you to understand a problem, then it gives you some indication of how to solve the problem in the fantasy world. Ie. taking the "black truffles" example given before, you can create a similar plant species in your world in order to round out the economic picture of your elfin society.

So real world examples are unfortunately skewed in favor of those who oppose the OPs position, because we merely have to show existence of something in the real world, whereas the counterarguments would have to show that such a thing cannot possibly exist in any conceivable fantasy universe. That's a pretty tall order even for someone who is an expert on metallurgy, economy, and society.

 

[mmadsen]

So real world examples are unfortunately skewed in favor of those who oppose the OPs position, because we merely have to show existence of something in the real world, whereas the counterarguments would have to show that such a thing cannot possibly exist in any conceivable fantasy universe. That's a pretty tall order even for someone who is an expert on metallurgy, economy, and society.

The discussion would probably be more productive if we discussed what elements would help or hurt an elf society and why we find them plausible or implausbile, rather than taking sides.

For instance, if an elf society tried to survive in the woods as a tribe of hunter-gatherers, it would presumably fail to thrive -- unless it managed to do something quite different from real-life hunter-gatherers, who succumbed to encroaching agrarian societies or fled to some inhospitable corner of the world.

I find it perfectly plausible to assume that the elves have devised permaculture "farming" techniques in their hidden groves, so they can maintain an advanced agrarian society without amber waves of grain.

If elves live for hundreds of years, mature slowly, and reproduce rarely, then they certainly cannot recover quickly from a war or other disaster, but they also presumably invest a tremendous amount in their offspring, and they have a society of wise yet energetic adults who can benefit from education or training for hundreds of years.

A culture with such a vast investment in "humanoid capital" should be much, much more productive than a typical medieval society, in the same way that our modern society is much, much more productive than medieval Europe.

Even if such a society is not particulalry war-like, it has the resources to dedicate to its own defense.

 

[gizmo33]

For instance, if an elf society tried to survive in the woods as a tribe of hunter-gatherers, it would presumably fail to thrive -- unless it managed to do something quite different from real-life hunter-gatherers, who succumbed to encroaching agrarian societies or fled to some inhospitable corner of the world.

I'd say that a fantasy forest would be looked at as pretty inhospitable by elfin enemies. Treants, unicorns, sprites, dryads and all sorts of creatures that could be natural allies of elves would be enemies of bumbling humans. (Yet another advantage that elves could make use of in their survival BTW)

The basic issue regarding encroaching agrarian societies is that this is particular to the real world and it's development. But I would think most DnD campaigns remain rather technologically and developmentally stable/static - so I don't think this would have to be an issue for a campaign that wanted to have hunter/gatherer elves. Or, there's always the "Great Cataclysm" option that many campaign worlds make use of. There's no reason that hunter-gatherer elves would have to be viable for 1000 years anyway, simply for the time period that encompasses the campaign.

 

[mmadsen]

I'd say that a fantasy forest would be looked at as pretty inhospitable by elfin enemies.

Certainly, but the elves don't need to lose a pitched battle in the heart of the woods to end up doomed. If the human homesteaders just keep moving closer and closer to the woods, collecting firewood and clearing land, and the elves aren't ruthless about stopping them, then eventually the elves will be displaced.

The basic issue regarding encroaching agrarian societies is that this is particular to the real world and it's development.

I don't think it's peculiar to our real world; it's fundamental to how hunter-gatherers live versus farmers. Hunter-gatherers need vast amounts of wilderness per person to supply enough food. Farmers don't need as much land, but they need to apply much more labor to that land. Farming societies build denser populations, which yield larger armies.

Then there's the whole issue of building anything resembling civilization if you're hunting and gathering, with everything you own on your back. Since elves live for hundreds of years, I suppose they could have an advanced oral literary tradition, where they all memorize the equivalent of a human scholar's library.

 

[Storm Raven]

And you don't seem to understand that you can't get a unlimited amount of money out of a luxury product. When gemstones are rare then elves have nearly no gemstones to trade away (and really, saying that they are only found in forests is just silly so there are other sources of gems).
And while haven't studies geology, I don't think that gemstones are found in large quantities in a forest (correct me if I am wrong)

You are wrong. The diamond sources in West Africa that provide the funds that fuel the bulk of the civil wars that rage there are found in . . . . wet forested areas. Entire armies are funded and supplied with modern arms using nothing but the income from this "luxury product".

 

[gizmo33]

and the elves aren't ruthless about stopping them, then eventually the elves will be displaced.

How rutheless do they have to be? - there's no mandate for farmers to have to push into that land unless you create one for the campaign (because there's no mandate for population growth and the other factors). Besides just the possibility of a farmer getting shot by a pixie-dart and waking up in another kingdom could be enough to discourage settlement. "Cursed land" that's not open to settlement is a concept that I would expect a magical fantasy society to understand.

The small woodlands within a given kingdom, plus swamps and stuff - would be the first candidates for clearing - leaving the great primeval forest homelands of the elves untouched. It's likely that nomadic elves could strike a deal with human kingdoms anyway.

Granted, as the population increases then pressures might cause such treaties to collapse. But that's not a situation that's universal to all times and places - the campaign would simply be placed at a period of time when those forces are not as apparent.

Sooner or later someone is going to invent gunpowder - doesn't mean that a sword-wielding tech-level for DnD doesn't make sense. There's also no reason that any society is mandated to invent gunpowder, or (more to the point) explode in population, simply because those things happen on planet Earth. One of the real tricky parts of assuming all possible socieities must be like historical Earth ones is that there's really not a lot of data points for you to compare.

I don't think it's peculiar to our real world; it's fundamental to how hunter-gatherers live versus farmers. Hunter-gatherers need vast amounts of wilderness per person to supply enough food. Farmers don't need as much land, but they need to apply much more labor to that land. Farming societies build denser populations, which yield larger armies.

Yea, but there are other issues. One is that there's nothing fundemental about population increases in agrarian socieities across all planets - you have to assume earth climate and crops and so on. Secondly you haven't addressed the dangers of the fantasy woodland - it's possible that elfin homelands radiate some sort of fey aura that causes crop-blight and much lower-than-average yields for agriculture for the kinds of foods that humans know how to grow. Lastly, the kinds of cultural transmission that exists in the real world might not exist in the fantasy one - the god of the hunter/gatherer elves might have a vested interest in keeping them at his tech level - meaning that his divine servants intervene at crucial points to maintain the divisions.

Then there's the whole issue of buidling anything resembling civilization if you're hunting and gathering, with everything you own on your back. Since elves live for hundreds of years, I suppose they could have an advanced oral literary tradition, where they all memorize the equivalent of a human scholar's library.

I agree - the goal would be to make it so that elfin hunter-gatherers look as much like their human counterparts on earth. That way the basic features are familiar to the players without a whole lot of explaining.

 

[Derren]

You are wrong. The diamond sources in West Africa that provide the funds that fuel the bulk of the civil wars that rage there are found in . . . . wet forested areas. Entire armies are funded and supplied with modern arms using nothing but the income from this "luxury product".

And of course those diamond sources do not involve any mining and forest clearly or other environment destroying things...

 

[Slife]

And of course those diamond sources do not involve any mining and forest clearly or other environment destroying things...

It used to be (before extensive mining occurred) that you could just pick them off the ground.

The reason that mining is so destructive these days is because all the easy stuff's been mined out already.

 

[gizmo33]

And of course those diamond sources do not involve any mining and forest clearly or other environment destroying things...

His example is sufficient to demonstrate the point about economic conditions. Your comment appears by proximity to object to them but really changes the subject by raising the question of what the environmental conditions are like.

As we've already discussed, there's no reason to have an opinion on the geology of every single possible fantasy world in this area - which is relevant to just how the diamonds are gathered and the environmental impact. There's also no reason to think that the environmental disruption is equivalent, given that the populations/numbers involved don't have to equate - there are millions of people in that part of Africa - I would seriously doubt most people conceive of an elf kingdom in terms of millions. It's a fantasy world - a sharp-eyed elf can spot diamonds in the river-bank that wash down periodically from the mountains - it can be as simple as that.