The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[mmadsen]

Elf have no skill which makes them better than a equal level crafter from a other race.

And Mongols have no bonuses to make them better riders than equal-level Inuits of the same steppe-nomad class.

 

[Derren]

Please. The contention -- not one I'd necessarily share, by the way -- was that gemstones would be relative common in the woodlands of the elves. Thus, gemstones would be valuable trade goods with great buying power.

Why would the presence of elves increase the number of gemstones found in a forest? Not all forests are under elven controll.

You seem to be systematically ignoring the fact that the elves are a long-lived race with a magical culture. They have tremendous "humanoid capital". Even if they have no raw materials, they can cut raw gemstones in Silmarils, they can enchant rings and swords, they can grant all kinds of magical boons to wealthy lords of other races, etc.
A nation does not need to sit on oil deposits to be wealthy. Look at Japan, Hong Kong, etc.

Elves are not more magical than humans (ability scores) so even in the magic sector they face competition. Why would a lord outside of the elven realm (as the money has to flow into the elven nation, not only circulate) buy his magical equipment from a different nation and not from his own?

And Mongols have no bonuses to make them better riders than equal-level Inuits of the same steppe-nomad class.

They have. Its called "Human Bonus Starting Feat" and "Human Bonus Skill Point".

 

[fusangite]

When something is not covered by D&D and can't be deducted from any rules I use the real world

Good. Then you can concede that forests can be highly productive, the fur trade can be highly lucrative, low birth rate societies often dominate and conquer high birth rate societies, nations can gain the vast majority of their raw materials through trade, low birth rates tend to correlate high life expectancies and the main value in an economy comes from having a mobilized, educated and long-lived workforce. Excellent.

I guess we're done! Hurray!

 

[Umbran]

I sense a disturbance in the Force - the rising of tensions in this thread.

I should not have to remind folks here that there is no need to win the argument, no pressing absolute requirement that the other guy sees things your way. If another poster doesn't count your points as particularly valid, getting more aggressive about it probably isn't a particularly constructive response.

Relax, take a breath. If you find yourself posting in response to frustration, just step back and don't post until your frustration has ebbed, please.

 

[gizmo33]

Elves don't mine, that would destroy nature, you forgot? So all the iron under the trees would be useless for elves. And Mithril is so much more common than iron that elves would have no problem to use that instead of iron? Right....

Didn't you read anything else? Why didn't you address bog iron? I said, specifically that the gnomes in the forest would probably do the digging, but the elves live right there along with them. And mithril is rare in general but that doesn't mean that it's rarity doesn't vary by location - "elfin chainmail" could be called that for a reason. You don't seem to be addressing 90% of what I wrote.

But I see the problem. You simply invent things to justify the elven culture like that in D&D gemstones are common in forests and still valuable.

Somebody invented elves, didn't they? No sense in arguing about how elves survive in the real world because they don't. That's not to say that you couldn't stand to recognize some facts about forest resources and non-Western cultures, but it's not necessary.

But when you do not invent things left and right with a "its fantasy" justification the elven society does not work.

Elves were invented left and right! Why don't you explain why they wear silks? Doesn't it seem reasonable that you support a culture with materials and technology? Do you really expect the players handbook, which doesn't even include 90% of medieval technology, to support and explain fantasy ecosystems? I don't see "millet" on the trade goods lists - oh well, so much for those socieites, guess they're all dead too.

And even if you do, you fail to think it through. SO gemstones are common? Then they are worthless and not useable as trade good. And you are back at the root of the problem: Elves have not enough goods to trade away.

Who in the heck isn't thinking this through?! Just because elves can find gemstones in their environment doesn't mean they're common! In fact, it's exactly the opposite, they could be uncommon in the elfin environment, and not found anywhere else! You could not explain something as mundane as the diamond trade by your reasoning, because the assumption you apparently make is that in order for something to be a trade good, it has to be common. You made the same basic logical mistake with furs - assuming that a fur trade would indicate that millions of furry animals would have to be killed. You don't seem to understand the concept of rarity and value.

 

[Derren]

Who in the heck isn't thinking this through?! Just because elves can find gemstones in their environment doesn't mean they're common! In fact, it's exactly the opposite, they could be uncommon in the elfin environment, and not found anywhere else! You could not explain something as mundane as the diamond trade by your reasoning, because the assumption you apparently make is that in order for something to be a trade good, it has to be common. You made the same basic logical mistake with furs - assuming that a fur trade would indicate that millions of furry animals would have to be killed. You don't seem to understand the concept of rarity and value.

And you don't seem to understand that you can't get a unlimited amount of money out of a luxury product. When gemstones are rare then elves have nearly no gemstones to trade away (and really, saying that they are only found in forests is just silly so there are other sources of gems).
And while haven't studies geology, I don't think that gemstones are found in large quantities in a forest (correct me if I am wrong) and "grow" very fast. That means that elves have to wander farther and farther away each year to find gems. Together with fur which follows the same rules it would lead to a more nomadic lifestyle which does not support a advanced society very well.

Besides, the value of gems is known in D&D. They are not that expensive even if you double the price because of low supply/high demand.

You don't seem to be addressing 90% of what I wrote.

Then you have to stop to post something while I am replying

 

[mmadsen]

Why would the presence of elves increase the number of gemstones found in a forest?

Who argued that it did? The contention -- not mine, by the way -- was that gemstones can be found near tree roots. If elves live in forests, then they would logically have access to those gemstones. They could then trade those gemstones to people who don't have as easy access to gemstones.

Not all forests are under elven controll.

So the elves won't have a monopoly? OK...

Elves are not more magical than humans (ability scores) so even in the magic sector they face competition.

Silicon Valley Humans are arguably no more technical (by ability scores) than Rural Mexican Humans -- and yet Silicon Valley is a tech hub, and rural Mexico is not. It must be because Silicon Valley has more silicon mines...

Why would a lord outside of the elven realm (as the money has to flow into the elven nation, not only circulate) buy his magical equipment from a different nation and not from his own?

Why wouldn't all Mexicans drive Mexican trucks? Mexico has mechanical engineers.

They have. Its called "Human Bonus Starting Feat" and "Human Bonus Skill Point".

Inuits are human too. They are mechanically identical -- as far as the game is concerned, certainly -- to Mongols. If you want to learn how to ride a pony and shoot a compound bow at a gallop though, don't expect to learn from one of the many equally good Inuit experts on the steppe-nomad lifestyle.

 

[Derren]

mmadsen, you have to learn to use the D&D rules when the rules provide a framework for something.

Last time I checked the "software developer class" does not have a minimum Int requirement. But the wizard class is directly tied to the Int score of the individual. A normal human or elf would be a very bad wizard because he would only be able to cast 0th level spell. So only a exceptional individual can become a good wizard and elves do not have more of such individuals than humans have.
Also there are no secret elven spells and items. The only elven only things cover things which mix martial arts and magic but except as mercenaries such things can't be sold.
Likewise all magic in D&D is equal and the only thing which changes is the caster level -> the level of the person who casts it. And with the faster maturity and larger population finding a high level human wizard is not harder than to find a high level elf.

Inuits have chosen a different starting feat and spend their skillpoints on fishing and not on ride like mongols (to use D&D terms). But elves do not have this ability as all their bonuses (by race and culture) are fixed and they do not contain any crafting skills or otherwise skills which use can be sold very well.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

- Elves do *not* have any special immunity to disease, magical or mundane. (Indeed, that -2 to Constitution would increase their susceptibility.)
- Elves do *not* have any special immunity to parasites.

Please show me where in the Third edition rules it lists the mundane diseases and parasites of the world(s) and that all demi-human races are susceptible to them. Many diseases that affect chimps, gorillas etc don't affect humand and vice versa. You are making an assumption that the physiology of elves are similar enough to human that they are affected by similar diseases in the same way. I didn't read any of that in the rules, so I say your assumption is nothing more than that, an assumption based upon your own viewpoint.

Now, just to spin this around; from an epidemiological standpoint most infectious diseases tend to be more devastating when there are larger, more concentrated populations. So, because you say elves have a lower birth rate and lower populations, it also means they don't have the large population centers as humans do and therefore they would be less affected by infectious disease.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

Bog iron could be gathered from wetlands within forests. While it's likely that I could find real-world cultures whose primary source of iron was bog iron (vikings?), it's unecessary because, again, we're talking fantasy...

check out my post (129 - above yours) there's a link to a bog iron site together with some information on recycling and long term use of iron. Green elves recycle. There's another factor to add to the equation.