The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[Halivar]

You are making an assumption that the physiology of elves are similar enough to human that they are affected by similar diseases in the same way. I didn't read any of that in the rules, so I say your assumption is nothing more than that, an assumption based upon your own viewpoint.

I'm not so sure. Consider that certain classes explicitly gain immunity to disease as an extraordinary ability, indicating that disease immunity is actively managed by the RAW, not just implied, but expressly either granted or not granted. If it doesn't list it, you don't get it; and elves don't have it listed.

EDIT: I forgot that there's a list of "mundane" diseases in the SRD. TMK no PC race gets immunity from them.

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

One more luxury food export I forgot:

The Black truffle or Black Périgord Truffle (Tuber melanosporum) is named for the Périgord region in France and grows exclusively with oak.

The largest truffle market in France (and probably also in the world) is at Richerenches in Vaucluse. The largest truffle market in southwest France is at Lalbenque in Quercy. These markets are busiest in the month of January when the black truffles have their highest perfume. Black truffles on these markets sell between €200 and 600 per kilogram ($122–$367 per pound), depending on the quantity and quality of the harvest.

 

[mmadsen]

Last time I checked the "software developer class" does not have a minimum Int requirement.

I would argue that software development is almost perfectly analogous to wizardly -- but it is not central to what we're discussing. The example was illustrative, and you ignored the point I made: the limiting factor in software engineers in rural Mexico or the jungles of Brazil is not, presumably, the lack of potential in the individuals living there; it's the lack of expertise. Those are not technical societies full of veteran software developers, with wi-fi access at a Starbucks on every block.

But the wizard class is directly tied to the Int score of the individual. A normal human or elf would be a very bad wizard because he would only be able to cast 0th level spell. So only a exceptional individual can become a good wizard and elves do not have more of such individuals than humans have.

Elven society presumably offers all intelligent elves ample opportunity to become wizards; human society presumably does not. Elven society is analogous to modern Europe, where anyone with reasonable talent can go on to study through the university level and on to receive a doctorate. D&D human society is analogous to medieval Europe. where only the tiniest fraction of the population could ever dream of anything other than back-breaking labor.

 

[fusangite]

Also there are no secret elven spells and items.

So all the published settings and materials in which there are secret elven spells and items are wrong? All those secret elven armour making techniques detailed in the WOTC Arms & Equipment Guide, what are those?

Inuits have chosen a different starting feat and spend their skillpoints on fishing and not on ride like mongols (to use D&D terms). But elves do not have this ability as all their bonuses (by race and culture) are fixed and they do not contain any crafting skills or otherwise skills which use can be sold very well.

Elves, just like all creatures with skill points, get to decide where to put those skill points. How, exactly, are you arguing that because elves have racial bonuses they cannot therefore decide what their skill points and level 1 feat are spent on? The fact that they cannot control what their bonuses apply to has nothing to do with their ability to allocate skill points exactly as they see fit, just like gnomes, orcs, kobolds, dwarves, halflings, etc; this is an ability that all humanoids share with humans.

 

[gizmo33]

And you don't seem to understand that you can't get a unlimited amount of money out of a luxury product.

It's not necessary for me to prove "unlimited" in order to question your assertion of "none".

When gemstones are rare then elves have nearly no gemstones to trade away (and really, saying that they are only found in forests is just silly so there are other sources of gems).

Logically, again, it's not necessary that amber, for example, be only found in one location in the world to make it valuable. In a fantasy world, a particular gemstone, fossilized tree resin (like amber) for example might only be found in forests. Or, it could be found in forests, and perhaps on sea coasts (which would be coincidental with forest). Elves don't have to be the only source of amber in the world for it to be valuable.

And while haven't studies geology, I don't think that gemstones are found in large quantities in a forest (correct me if I am wrong) and "grow" very fast. That means that elves have to wander farther and farther away each year to find gems.

So does any other community. I'm sure elves are willing to leave their tree houses. Forests can be pretty large. Collecting gemstones that wash down from the mountains, or finding amber in the swamp, or whatever can be an ongoing process. I'm not suggesting that gem-gathering is the primary industry of elves, but I don't need to - elves would practice these things in aggregate, and the quantities would be sufficient for spell casting and trade.

Besides, the value of gems is known in D&D. They are not that expensive even if you double the price because of low supply/high demand.

Gemstones are *extremely* expensive by real-world standards. Most types seem to far exceed the value of gold by weight. A 500 gp gem would have to weigh 10 lbs in order to be even worth it's weight in gold.

Then you have to stop to post something while I am replying

Ok, but your response to the iron issue could have addressed gnomes, bog iron and the rest. Seems to be that you just selected out a few facts, out of context, from what I wrote and didn't even quite reference them accurately.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

I'm not so sure. Consider that certain classes explicitly gain immunity to disease as an extraordinary ability, indicating that disease immunity is actively managed by the RAW, not just implied, but expressly either granted or not granted. If it doesn't list it, you don't get it; and elves don't have it listed.

EDIT: I forgot that there's a list of "mundane" diseases in the SRD. TMK no PC race gets immunity from them.

Diseases in the game. Things like Mummy Rot and Filth Fever. Again I ask, please show me where in the rules are the listing for cholera, bubonic plague, smallpox etc.

As far as I have seen in the rules, most diseases are caused by attacks from monsters or from magical spells. There are no rules for how "ordinary" disease spreads through a population and who is susceptible to them.

As for the SRD mundane diseases:

When a character is injured by a contaminated attack, touches an item smeared with diseased matter, or consumes disease-tainted food or drink, he must make an immediate Fortitude saving throw.

Nothing there talks about transmission from person to person, so I'm still not seeing rules that would lead to population destroying diseases.

 

[mmadsen]

Now, just to spin this around; from an epidemiological standpoint most infectious diseases tend to be more devastating when there are larger, more concentrated populations. So, because you say elves have a lower birth rate and lower populations, it also means they don't have the large population centers as humans do and therefore they would be less affected by infectious disease.

It depends on the time frame you're looking at. In the short term, population centers are much more vulnerable to epidemics -- particularly if they bring together multiple species that can spread diseases back and forth, e.g. pigs and humans.

In the long term, urban populations develop immunities to the various diseases that have passed through, while distant hunter-gatherer populations do not.

Thus, when the Europeans started arriving in the New World, locals died in droves. (Although there's some argument that local diseases may have reappeared at that time...)

 

[fusangite]

It depends on the time frame you're looking at. In the short term, population centers are much more vulnerable to epidemics -- particularly if they bring together multiple species that can spread diseases back and forth, e.g. pigs and humans.

In the long term, urban populations develop immunities to the various diseases that have passed through, while distant hunter-gatherer populations do not.

Thus, when the Europeans started arriving in the New World, locals died in droves.

Not to nitpick but Tenochtitlan, as the largest city in the hemisphere (with a population of about 200,000) had amongst the highest death rates from smallpox. Densely-populated areas of the Mexico Valley and Andes had the worst epidemic disease at contact of almost anywhere.

Fortunately, the history of the Americas nevertheless supports your general contention. The Andes and Mexico Valley have had, amongst the best demographic recovery of any indigenous populations in the New World, largely because, after a 90% drop in population in a century and a half, the population density remained sufficient to sustain a productive society whereas lower death rates were able to annihilate societies that lacked the characteristics of Mesoamerican urban societies.

Also, on this front, the main thing that conditions whether a society will suffer what Crosby called "virgin soil epidemics" is not urban life; rather, it is trade dependence. African societies on the Indian rim had high levels of resistance to Eurasian disease than did less trade-dependent interior societies, despite the fact that population densities remained low and settlement patterns remained rural.

Ultimately, the societies that have the best disease resistance tend to be migratory pastoralists, not city dwellers. In migratory pastoralist societies, contagion exposure is not as bottlenecked through a small number of trading specialists but is more evenly distributed through society.

EDIT: Recent science seems to indicate that it is this ranging and trading, not the zoonotic explanation that accounts for this.

 

[BlackMoria]

Hmmm. Some perspective is need here. People are superimposing real world economics into a fantasy world and are getting hot under the collar in the telling.

There are no real elves, so attributing real world values to elves is not an answer.

I could say that elves don't need as much food as a real world human because in a fantasy world, given the often stated that elves are beings of magic or heavily in tune with magic, I could make the case that elves are partially sustained by mana or ambient magic and therefore could survive on a cupful of berries per day. The RAW doesn't contradict or confirm that assertion so it is no less valid than anyone elses take on elven psyiology.

And with that theory, elven society can live and prosper in trees without arguing real world farming and hunter gathering societies and sustainable economics. All handwaved away because elves are partially sustained by magic itself.

And since there are no real world elves - guess what - my assertions are no more or less credibility than anyone elses guess on elven economics.

My point - it is a fantasy world so stop arguing real world economics and societies because they don't equate. I can have special magical trees that grow certain gemstones in my campaign setting. Now your real world argument about mining practices in forests is made academic.

Real World....Fantasy World. Don't mix 'em and argue them as absolutes.

 

[Prince of Happiness]

I could say that elves don't need as much food as a real world human because in a fantasy world, given the often stated that elves are beings of magic or heavily in tune with magic, I could make the case that elves are partially sustained by mana or ambient magic and therefore could survive on a cupful of berries per day. The RAW doesn't contradict or confirm that assertion so it is no less valid than anyone elses take on elven psyiology.

Do you have rations for your elves weigh less than that for other races? If they require less food, then less rations right? Because the rules don't make that distinction.

Myself, as a "foodie" and attentive to various forms of food production and attainment, there are many ways of cultivating food that doesn't conform to Farmer Brown and his two cows agriculture. Plus, as given in source material for grey/gold elves, they do dwell in cities, often in mountains and do attain industry.