The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

Edena_of_Neith said:
Elves are not winners, not successful, not able to adjust or cope, not able to survive. These realities are built into the race in 3rd edition (as it was in 2nd and 1st edition and OD&D)

We as players ignore this reality, even as we ignore the problems of kender when we play them. Nevertheless, the underlying reality remains, and nobody has an answer that negates it.
Or do they have an answer?

First, let's look at the problem.

In the real world, back in medieval Europe, life was - to use a clique - hard and short. The people faced trouble from both the natural world and the manmade world, and from their own needs.
Their own needs meant 90% of the population had to engage in farming, from sunup to sundown, their whole lives, if society was to exist. The remaining 10% of the population could do something else. This assumed good weather, good crop yields, and peacetime.
The natural world was not very nice to these people. Bad weather ruined crops and brought famine. Plagues swept through cities, towns, and fiefdoms alike. A host of personal illnesses saw sky-high birth mortality for women, sky-high mortality among children under 5, and an unpleasant life for the survivors (if you count having all your teeth decay and fall out as unpleasant ... or convulsing in tetanus because you suffered a minor, dirty injury ... or repeatedly ravaged by influenza ... or working until you drop dead from it.)
Manmade troubles included wars (nothing like the Hundred Years War to engender merriment), taxes (medieval taxes ...), conscription, forced labor, and a social feudal system from deepest nightmare.

Let's take this reality, and assume for a moment that the Fantasy World reflects it. In the Fantasy World, reality for the human race is this bad. Humanity must endure medieval conditions as we think of them in our own history.
This is a reasonable assumption to make. The Greyhawk Wars exemplify the suffering of the human race in the Flanaess. The War of the Lance, Test of the Twins, Rise of the Knights of Takhisis, and War of Souls exemplify the suffering of mankind on Krynn. On Toril, this suffering is shown in the detailed history of that world, with it's countless wars, humanoid invasions, beholder and djinn empires, drow assaults, illithid deprivations, collapse of one civilization after another, and as usual the uproar produced by the elves, phaerimm, Shade, Thayvians, Zhentarim, and other groups like that. On Athas, harsh takes on a whole new meaning as all life there is caught up in a final, twilight effort at survival. (Of course, in Hyboria it wouldn't be Hyboria if it wasn't a harsh place for harsh endeavors. In Nehwon, the Gray Mouser strides through a harsh world and thrives therein.)
In other worlds, life stinks, it is short and grim, and it's joys fleeting and to be grasped at while one has hands to use (or, as the Norse thought, make a big splash in your world. And hope Wotan approves of it.)

Now we understand the predicament of humans. So what of elves? Well ... in the Rules as Written ...

Elves have all the problems of humans.
They have all the problems of humans because they 1: have no special immunities to the horrors of nature, and 2: have no special immunities to manmade (and other races and monster) horrors, and 3: have to eat like anyone else.

But elves have handicaps that humans do not have, in their endeavor to compete and survive.

-

Humans in the medieval world had eight children. In good times, they could expect four to survive to adulthood. This occurred over a thirty year period. Thus, in a thousand year period, assuming good times (but if it is bad times, remember the bad times affect the elves also) you have around 8,589,934,592 descendants (2 x 2 for every 30 years.)
In that same time, a typical elven couple will have had 2 children, and their 2 children may or may not have had their first children yet. Total cumulative elven population? 5. Two older adults, two younger adults, and one child.
And again, remember that if bad times stop those two humans from producing eight billion descendants in a thousand years, bad times affect elves too!
8,589,934,592 versus 5 are large odds. And the humans will gladly accept resurrection. Elves never do. Or so I've been told. That stacks the odds more. And now it is said that elves believe those who chose baelnornhood and nymphdom and the like were insane (FOR5 Elves of Evermeet) which stacks the odds further: plenty of humans are glad to choose lichdom.

Furthermore, humans have this bad tendency to find longevity magic (you know exactly what I'm talking about ...) And in some settings, longevity is easy to obtain, or perhaps even semi-immortality as well.

-

Elves, for some reason, like forests. They do not clear these forests. Witness Qualinesti and Silvanesti Forest, or the elves skulking around in assorted Flannae forests, or the great Forest Nations of the elves of Toril (such as Cormanthor.)
That is all fine and well. But you cannot grow crops in forests. Wheat, corn, barley, oats, rye, will not grow under the trees. Grass for grazing, will not grow under a canopy of branches.
You cannot build houses in forests, unless of course you clear away the trees necessary to make room for a house. If there are thousands of elves wanting thousands of houses, this would require considerable clearing.
You *cannot* set up forges in a forest, unless you use wood (a great deal of wood) to fire them. If you try to use coal instead, say hello to some serious air pollution (and exactly where is this coal being mined? Not under the forest in question, I hope ...) But without forges you cannot produce anything made of bronze, iron, or steel, which means no elven armor or weapons.

Forests are not exactly comfortable places even in real life. Poison ivy and oak proliferate. Brambles trail away from thickets of thorns. Branches slap at the face and body. Footing is difficult, and falls and injuries easily obtained. Stagnant water is undrinkable, and what little food there is comes only in Season (witness Mirkwood, from The Hobbit, in which Thorin and Company almost met their demise.)
Of course every form of disease imaginable occurs in forest settings, and critters make things worse (that's right, there is no anti-venin for that rattlesnake bite, and yes there *are* black widows living in that tree and countless others, and yes the ticks, fleas, mosquitoes, and others bite, annoy, and carry horrible ailments for the victim's pleasure.)
In short, you can't build a civilization - even a civilization in the medieval sense of the word - in a forest.
Yet for some reason, elves insist on living in forests. Which means that, realistically, they never progress past the Stone Age (and the famous Elfquest strips and novels bear that out.)

For some reason, elves like to dance and sing, frolic and be merry. They apparently like to waste their time (purportedly because they have so much time to waste.)
But frolicking does not put supper on the table. It does not purify polluted water. It does not create weapons or armor. It does not cure illnesses or wounds. It does not even protect from the occasional rainstorm and the pneumonia that can cause (didn't someone mention that -2 penalty to Constitution for elves? LOL ...)
Now, the OTHER races do *not* waste time. Orcs procreate like bunnies and make war. Humans build vast empires (clearing forests along the way.) Illithid plot and scheme to dominate utterly the snackthings. Phaerimm plan world destruction. Manshoon (all 50 of him) creates anarchy. Aerdi destroys Almor, and the Adri will probably be next (after they wipe the floor with Drax.) Qualinesti Forest is burned, because the Knights of Takhisis got themselves a world class champion. The Dragon rose in a certain Athan city, destroying plants, animals, and humans to achieve ultimate supremacy.
But elves waste their time. It says so in the book.
Nothing like playing a game of RISK, and the Elven Player decides to take Australia and sit there. He does not take his 3 Armies per turn, he does not pick up cards, and he does not make attacks ... although he does defend and holds Australia. Until, of course, someone gets 50 Armies from a card and obliterates him along with all the other players.
But that is how elves supposedly work. Or, in this case, *not* work, but dance, sing, frolick, and make merry. *Humans* must slave away from sunrise to sundown just to survive, but elves need not do so. Or so it says.

So elves:

1: Do not procreate.
2: Live in forests under conditions that make any civilization beyond the Stone Age impossible.
3: Waste time in singing, dancing, and making merry.

And:

4: Humans and other races are on the aggressive against elves
5: Monsters infest the lands and forests, making survival even more difficult
6: Many of the other races are supercompetitive, superpowerful, and hate the elves like bad spinnach

Result: extinction. (Or, as the Daleks would say: Exterminate!)

-

The upshot of the above is that players invariably play elves as humans. And elven civilization is depicted as being humanlike (sometimes, it is more humanish than the humans make things, which is nasty ... witness the drow. Witness Melnibone, if you call those people elves.)
But what if some of us don't like elves as humans? What if we don't want that?
What if we want elves as ELVES? As a people who actually *do* procreate slowly, *do* live in forests, and *do* spend a lot of time in merriment?

The question is, how to approach that - in D&D terms, and these terms and rules make it possible and even easily done - and make it work. How to have your elves as elves, in spite of all of the above, and still have them as winners.

In fact, it is my opinion that, only through being Elven elves, do the elves have *any* chance at survival. Playing human inevitably destroys them. So it's either be true to themselves, or face obliteration.
The simple question is how to do that, within the game mechanics.

The answer starts with spells like Lifeproof (see the AL-QADIM Setting Boxed Set) Because that spell alters the fundamental realities I have discussed above.
And aren't elves supposed to be strong in magic?

I don't think there truely has been a point how elves exist. They are a dying race. Look, they have a minus to Con. They are not as Hardy. However, they are an ancient race that has risen to heights that humanity has yet to reach and then they have fallen into decadence. As a race, they tend to be more cooperative to helping each other. Humans want to prosper but they usually only think of their family. Elves have learned through many wars that they as a community must band together more than human settlements are willing to. Elven communities number in the few dozens to hundreds. Whereas humans range in settlements tin much greater numbers. Elven leaders are much less to abuse for personal power so if they had a fiefdom system, the taxes are taken only for what they need to have a cohesive community. Not to make some lord powerful and rich. If you look at Galdrial or Elrond communities, they may have maybe a couple thousand. They look at building quality over quantity. Things last unlike what human make. They also may be more at peace with their surroundings. They may have fruit and nuts crops as opposed to grains such as wheats and rices. Their livestock may be a managed wild crops that are hunted as opposed to raising for slaughter. Hence the more marshall than humans. This marshall style is used to protect themselves. Since they have a long history of wars with such creatures as Orcs, this marshall system has taught them with regards to them to shoot first and question later. They are like Israel with respect to their enemies around them. They take out much more of the enemies than they lose. They elves are generally better armed, they weapon making is more efficient but takes longer. There are many ways that the elves would continue to linger on using these precepts. The elves that are adventurers are the younger ones that have that diminishing spark of wonderlust.

My 2 cents
 

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wildstarsreach said:
I don't think there truely has been a point how elves exist. They are a dying race. Look, they have a minus to Con. They are not as Hardy. However, they are an ancient race that has risen to heights that humanity has yet to reach and then they have fallen into decadence. As a race, they tend to be more cooperative to helping each other. Humans want to prosper but they usually only think of their family. Elves have learned through many wars that they as a community must band together more than human settlements are willing to. Elven communities number in the few dozens to hundreds. Whereas humans range in settlements tin much greater numbers. Elven leaders are much less to abuse for personal power so if they had a fiefdom system, the taxes are taken only for what they need to have a cohesive community. Not to make some lord powerful and rich. If you look at Galdrial or Elrond communities, they may have maybe a couple thousand. They look at building quality over quantity. Things last unlike what human make. They also may be more at peace with their surroundings. They may have fruit and nuts crops as opposed to grains such as wheats and rices. Their livestock may be a managed wild crops that are hunted as opposed to raising for slaughter. Hence the more marshall than humans. This marshall style is used to protect themselves. Since they have a long history of wars with such creatures as Orcs, this marshall system has taught them with regards to them to shoot first and question later. They are like Israel with respect to their enemies around them. They take out much more of the enemies than they lose. They elves are generally better armed, they weapon making is more efficient but takes longer. There are many ways that the elves would continue to linger on using these precepts. The elves that are adventurers are the younger ones that have that diminishing spark of wonderlust.

My 2 cents

And where is this written in the rules, pray tell? All of this sounds like yet another individual take on elves. It's opinion, like Edena's, and unsupported by a number of campaign worlds. A lot of these points already have a sizable weight of evidence against them, in this tread and others.

Dark Sun elves don't fit this mold, nor do the elves from Warlords of the Accordlands...just for two major examples.
 

I think elves or any other fantasy race are how YOU as a DM imagine them. (By the way, I do seem to recall a reference to farming by elves in the Silmarillion -- as well as references to elven mines. So, between what has been pointed out in this thread, from permaculture, to traditional farming (that most people don't know about) and magic, it is possible to have elven and other cultures that are thriving. (By the way, I recall that some of the peoples of the Andes practiced mountain agriculture using an elaborate system of terraces. This could work well for elves or dwarves.)

Long lived races might develop magic to deal with incidental pollution from metallurgy, things that are generally not too useful for adventurers but might keep their territory more pristine. Possibly, most humans do not know of such spells.

Again, your game world is what you make of it.
 

fusangite said:
Derren,

I asked Edena something like this and it, and a few related questions seemed to set our dialogue on a more productive path. So, I'll do the same with you but structure it a little differently:

1. According to you, WOTC has structured D&D mechanically so that it is impossible to design any world in which elves are not going extinct. Is this because
(a) they didn't understand the implications of their mechanics; or
(b) they wanted to make it impossible for any setting to include elves that were not going extinct?
2. If WOTC has designed D&D to make it impossible for elves not to be on a path to total extinction, why do you think that it is so hard to persuade other people that this is what WOTC has done?
4. Why do you think so many of us are unable to see this? Is it a communication problem, a logic problem, what do you think is going wrong in this debate?

1: C.
Because WotC modeled elves after the LotR image which includes a lot of disadvantages like their eco lifestyle, low reporoduction rate etc. but in order to make them a LA 0 playable race they left out all advantages elves have. Now elves are balanced as adventurers but suck as society/nation and as WotC does not care about believable worlds (They don't build their worlds in a historcial sense but simply say "Elves go there") this wasn't noticed/was not a problem.

2.
- Elf fanboys
- People who want to make D&D, as it is, work
- People who say that everything in the D&D books is law and that they have to invent reasons to explain them

3. ?

4.
- See above
- Because people see the issues with elves as seperate problems which are not connected and also fail to see how it affects the rest of the races (mostly true for people who invent things)
- As I am not a native english speaker I probably sometimes use the wrong words and understand something not correctly.


But ok, lets say elves are so fortunate to sit on huge gemstone and diamond deposits so that they can buy all other things they do not have in a forest but are still required for a advanced civilization like iron, salt, mercury, silver(dust), the special materials required for enchanting and scribing,...

That would mean that elves depend on trade with outside realms and that includes protecting the trade routes as this trade with valuable items makes them even more of a target. So now elves do not have to defend themself against orcs and other evil races which simply hate elves and want to kill them, thzey now have also a problem with bandits who raid their caravans and greedy neutral rulers who want their diamonds.
That strains the elven military even more and the already huge disadvantage of slow elven reproduction (or rather the slow maturing of elves) becomes worse.

As an example, a elf gets born and takes 100+ years to grow up and become a level 1 warrior/fighter (or to reach the point where he can have children him/herself). In that 100 years the elves are probably attacked a dozend times. A single orc tribe alone which normally has nothing better to do than to slaughter elves, can attack, loose, rebreed, retrain and attack again two or three times in that 100 years. Then add the greedy rulers mentioned above, maybe a dragon who also wants those rich diamond mines etc.

That leads to the attrition I mentioned earlier. Elves would loose more adult elves than elves would grow up to replace them. Sooner or later the elves would have so few adults that they will be overrun by an attack.
A way to solve that is mercenaries, but for that the elves need to be extremly rich and mercenaries pose a risk as they might decide they are better off to attack the elves and size the diamonds for themself. Not to mention that a lot of mercenaries do not fit well with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle of elves as such a society is not able to supply a large number of not working people.
 
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Derren said:
1: C.
Because WotC modeled elves after the LotR image which includes a lot of disadvantages like their eco lifestyle, low reporoduction rate etc. but in order to make them a LA 0 playable race they left out all advantages elves have. Now elves are balanced as adventurers but suck as society/nation and as WotC does not care about believable worlds (They don't build their worlds in a historcial sense but simply say "Elves go there") this wasn't noticed/was not a problem.

Can you cite where the books actually say this? I'm sure not seeing it.

2.
- Elf fanboys
- People who want to make D&D, as it is, work
- People who say that everything in the D&D books is law and that they have to invent reasons to explain them

Again - proof? You're just ranting here, really.

4.
- See above
- Because people see the issues with elves as seperate problems which are not connected and also fail to see how it affects the rest of the races (mostly true for people who invent things)
- As I am not a native english speaker I probably sometimes use the wrong words and understand something not correctly.

And again...proof? You're just leaping wildly to conclusions here without supporting your points at all.


But ok, lets say elves are so fortunate to sit on huge gemstone and diamond deposits so that they can buy all other things they do not have in a forest but are still required for a advanced civilization like iron, salt, mercury, silver(dust), the special materials required for enchanting and scribing,...

All of those can be acquired in a forest or similar climate. Are you not familiar with these environments? As for the ad absurdum argument you lead off with...it's just that - absurd. Nobody's making the kind of hyperbolic statements you claim here. They've explained how these resources are available in an Earth-like environment...explanations you seem to be entirely ignroing here.

That would mean that elves depend on trade with outside realms and that includes protecting the trade routes as this trade with valuable items makes them even more of a target. So now elves do not have to defend themself against orcs and other evil races which simply hate elves and want to kill them, thzey now have also a problem with bandits who raid their caravans and greedy neutral rulers who want their diamonds.
That strains the elven military even more and the already huge disadvantage of slow elven reproduction (or rather the slow maturing of elves) becomes worse.

And any race that engages in trade in areas with banditry is likely to have their own guards, along with any military or law-enforcement strength elves might muster. And again, you're assuming that eleves are arboreal, which they aren't in all settings. You're not describing any problems that nations and cultures on Earth haven't handily dealt with.

As an example, a elf gets born and takes 100+ years to grow up and become a level 1 warrior/fighter. In that 100 years the elves are probably attacked a dozend times. A single orc tribe alone which normally has nothing better to do than to slaughter elves, can attack, loose, rebreed, retrain and attack again two or three times in that 100 years. Then add the greedy rulers mentioned above, maybe a dragon who also wants those rich diamond mines etc.

That leads to the attrition I mentioned earlier. Elves would loose more adult elves then elves would grow up to replace them. Sooner or later the elves would have so few adults that they will be overrun by an attack.
A way to solve that is mercenaries, but for that the elves need to be extremly rich and mercenaries pose a risk as they might decide they are better off to attack the elves and size the diamonds for themself. Not to mention that a lot of mercenaries do not fit well with the hunter-gatherer lifestyle of elves as such a society is not able to supply a large number of not working people.

And again - where does it say that elves are hunter-gatherers? They may be in your campaign, but I really don't think that even reflects the source material, let alone individual campaigns.
 

Jim Hague said:
Can you cite where the books actually say this? I'm sure not seeing it.
1. Look at D&D elves
2. Look at LotR elves
3. Look at old D&D books were halflings are called hobbits
4. think about this connection.
Again - proof? You're just ranting here, really.
And again...proof? You're just leaping wildly to conclusions here without supporting your points at all.

Where is the proof that it isn't because of this? You know somthing like personal opinion does exist...
All of those can be acquired in a forest or similar climate. Are you not familiar with these environments? As for the ad absurdum argument you lead off with...it's just that - absurd. Nobody's making the kind of hyperbolic statements you claim here. They've explained how these resources are available in an Earth-like environment...explanations you seem to be entirely ignroing here.

Why don't you explain how elves who do not clear woods, mostly depend on hunting/gathering and do not have a big population can get much iron, mithral, mercury, silver, salt and all other ressources? Even if they do mine which goes against their society/lifestyle they do not have the supply chain needed for big mining operation which are also static and do not fit very well to a hunter/gatherer society.

This is actually a proof for above. You see it as single issue. Elves need ressource x, y, z. Forests can have (low) quanitities of x and y. Conclusion Elves can get all ressources they need out of a forest. But you waste no time to think about what is needed to mine those ressources and what it means to the elven society.
And any race that engages in trade in areas with banditry is likely to have their own guards, along with any military or law-enforcement strength elves might muster. And again, you're assuming that eleves are arboreal, which they aren't in all settings. You're not describing any problems that nations and cultures on Earth haven't handily dealt with.

So elves would let other nations into their forest to protect their trade routes? Do you know how those problems were handeled in the real world? Each nation protects the trade route on its own side of the border. If one nation fails to protect them adequatly the other nation seeks a other trading partner or source of that resource.

And you really should real the Elf entry in the PHB especially the part of "Elven Lands".
And again - where does it say that elves are hunter-gatherers? They may be in your campaign, but I really don't think that even reflects the source material, let alone individual campaigns.

Again PHB "Elven Lands". This little paragraph supports a lot of my assumptions. Most elves live in small woodland communities, they do not farm but hunt and gather, they have little contact with outsiders and they have no interest in mining so they have to trade for iron. And its all in a Core book.

And now explain to me how such a community would withstand the repeated assault of orcs or worse Hobgoblins (stronger than orcs, expert tacticans and they hate elves with a passion) when they can breed multiple times faster than elves?
 
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Derren said:
1. Look at D&D elves
2. Look at LotR elves
3. Look at old D&D books were halflings are called hobbits
4. think about this connection.

And now you're falling into the same trap that the OP's done - calling on far-ranging and disparate resources to try and prop up your point. I can say look at Dark Sun, Accordlands or a dozen other settings where elves aren't as you describe.

Where is the proof that it isn't because of this? You know somthing like personal opinion does exist...

Might I suggest that you frame it in the context of your personal opinion, then, and not 'how things are'?

Why don't you explain how elves who do not clear woods, mostly depend on hunting/gathering and do not have a big population can get much iron, mithral, mercury, silver, salt and all other ressources? Even if they do mine which goes against their society/lifestyle they do not have the supply chain needed for big mining operation which are also static and do not fit very well to a hunter/gatherer society.

Except that nowhere is there any real evidence presented that they're hunter-gatherers. You're descrbing a culture that doesn't exist, except in your own head. Not even Tolkien elves were hunter-gatherers, for pete's sake.

This is actually a proof for above. You see it as single issue. Elves need ressource x, y, z. Forests can have (low) quanitities of x and y. Conclusion Elves can get all ressources they need out of a forest. But you waste no time to think about what is needed to mine those ressources and what it means to the elven society.

So elves would let other nations into their forest to protect their trade routes? Do you know how those problems were handeled in the real world? Each nation protects the trade route on its own side of the border. If one nation fails to protect them adequatly the other nation seeks a other trading partner or source of that resource.

You've built a house of sticks here - you've got an unsupported thesis ('elves are arboreal hunter-gatherers'). You're also discounting hired guards, which are common on any sort of trade route. Sorry, but you're not supporting yourself well here.

And you really should real the Elf entry in the PHB especially the part of "Elven Lands".

Funny, there's bits in here about how they can amply supply themselves without the need for clear-cutting or any of the other things you seem to hinge your argument on. And elven swordsmen in high demand certainly suggests a martial culture...

And now explain to me how such a community would withstand the repeated assault of orcs or worse Hobgoblins (stronger than orcs, expert tacticans and they hate elves with a passion) when they can breed multiple times faster than elves?

It might have something to do with the large number of magic items they likely have, that swordsmanship mentioned in the section you're fond of and their multiple abilities with both ranged and close-quarters weaponry. Doesn't exactly sound like a peaceful, hippie-like culture to me. Not to mention that if they live in forests, as per the PHB, they likely have large numbers of Rangers to supplement the Wizards...Rangers with the appropriate Favored Enemy feats.
 

Jim Hague said:
And now you're falling into the same trap that the OP's done - calling on far-ranging and disparate resources to try and prop up your point. I can say look at Dark Sun, Accordlands or a dozen other settings where elves aren't as you describe.

You can deny it all you want but the similarity of D&D elves to Lotr elves and the early books clearly show that D&D was inspired by LotR. The hobbits have changed over the editions but the elves have not.

And as the PHB describes the default elven society which is in effect as long as a campaign setting does not specifically overrule it I feel pretty comfortable to use it as basis to argue that D&D elves would not survive as society.
Might I suggest that you frame it in the context of your personal opinion, then, and not 'how things are'?

Maybe you should reread what fusangite asked me. "Why do you think..."
Except that nowhere is there any real evidence presented that they're hunter-gatherers. You're descrbing a culture that doesn't exist, except in your own head. Not even Tolkien elves were hunter-gatherers, for pete's sake.

1. Read PHB elven lands
2. Knowing that elves live in small woodland communities and don't clear trees to farm, how do they support themself?
You've built a house of sticks here - you've got an unsupported thesis ('elves are arboreal hunter-gatherers'). You're also discounting hired guards, which are common on any sort of trade route. Sorry, but you're not supporting yourself well here.

Read PHB Elven Lands.
And where do all those hired guards come from? And are they enough to stop larger bands of bandits?
Funny, there's bits in here about how they can amply supply themselves without the need for clear-cutting or any of the other things you seem to hinge your argument on. And elven swordsmen in high demand certainly suggests a martial culture...

You fail to look at the circumstances again. They survive as small communities but survival is not enough. To fend off all the elf hating races which breed much faster than them they do not need to only survive but to prosper.
And I never disputed that elves have a martial society, after all every elf learns to use a sword and a bow, but as they would not have the HP and BAB warriors have the milita would have high casulties in a conflict, casulties small elven communities can't cope with.
It might have something to do with the large number of magic items they likely have, that swordsmanship mentioned in the section you're fond of and their multiple abilities with both ranged and close-quarters weaponry. Doesn't exactly sound like a peaceful, hippie-like culture to me. Not to mention that if they live in forests, as per the PHB, they likely have large numbers of Rangers to supplement the Wizards...Rangers with the appropriate Favored Enemy feats.

Where is the proof that elves have many magical items? The wealth by community size table says something different.
And elves simply can't afford to be agressive. As I explained again and again, their low reproduction rate makes a war against a other, fast breeding race useless as those race will recover from the war (even if they loose) much faster than the elves do so in the end the elves will come out weakened even if they attack and win. The only way to prevent that is genocide (which leaves room for other powers to take the place) or occupation (which teh elves do not have the troop strength for).
 

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