The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
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This complaint goes away if we assume that a typical elf is not a 1st-level commoner. If a typical elf with hundreds of years of experience is instead a 10th-level Bard (or whatever), then elves are just as balanced by the rules, but their society is a military powerhouse.Derren said:
I will readily concede that taking 100 years to become nothing but a first-level Fighter is ludicrous. (It's a shame that even non-adventuring NPC classes in D&D grant hit dice, BAB, etc., because a "first-level" elf should probably be a Poet9/Ftr1, to justify how he's been spending the last 100 years...)Derren said:
If the elf military is composed of archers with hundreds of years of experience, all attacking from ambush from within their own enchanted forest, I wouldn't be surprised if they regularly took no casualties from orc incursions.Derren said:
The number of humans or orcs who reach 10th level, let alone 20th, is infinitesimal. More importantly, when a human or orc champion arises, he soon grows old and frail. An elf champion can lead his people through centuries of trying times, aided by all the other elf champions with centuries of experience.Derren said:
Multiclassing is only a bad decision for players of PCs trying to maximize their power per level. Within the game world, a good "build" isn't an issue.Derren said:
But that's the only thing limiting the number of high-level wizards in elf society. Elves grow up in a magical society and have hundreds of years to study and accumulate knowledge.Derren said:
Humans rarely receive an education, and they die as soon as they master the basics in their field of study.
If elves lived as hunter-gatherers in a typical temperate forest, they would have a low population density. On the other hand, if they live amongst magically (or simply expertly) cultivated permaculture groves, they may be able to support much more population than medieval human farmers, at a higher level of health, with much less labor. Which assumptions do we prefer?Derren said:
Reproduction rate is not an issue in determining a race's maximum sustainable population; it only determines how quickly a race can reach that maximum -- or re-reach it after a shock.Derren said:
The limit on a population's size is how well it can support itself, which has generally meant how much land it could hold and how productive that land was.
My apologies. I felt his contributions were good fodder for discussion -- until they got heated and personal. Can we invite someone back after a brief cool-down?Piratecat said:
At any rate, I feel much of the "problem" in this discussion is that the source material is not consistent -- D&D happily contradicts itself -- so citing passages or even rules from disparate sources can lead to any number of conclusions.
If we ignore the demographics from the DMG -- and I do feel that those demographics were tacked on, without much deep thought into their implications -- then elves make much more sense. If, on the other hand, we slavishly follow their dictates, and follow them equally across races and societies, then elves are just like humans, only very, very slow to learn -- 1st level at age 100? -- and that race probably would be doomed.
(un)reason
Legend
Hardly. Given that for each +2 levels, the amount of people of that level approximately halves, (The standard ratio in the DMG) that means that there are approximately 202 level 20 characters per million, or slightly over 1 per 5,000. That's more than enough for any significant population to have at least 1 level 20 character, and dozens of level 10+ ones. The fact that in actual settings this isn't really bourne out (apart from ptolus, which has even more level 20 characters per capita than that) is another matter altogether.mmadsen said:
If we accept those demographic assumptions, then 0.02% of the population is 20th-level. I'm willing to call that infinitesimal, but if you consider that hyperbole, then I'm willing to call 0.02% very, very small.(un)reason said:
Of course, I'm inclined to believe that the vast majority of high-level characters should belong to long-lived races like the elves, and that they should not be evenly distributed amongst races.
mmadsen said:
Yes, but work the math backwards - if the number doubles for each level under 20 (and I'm dong my math right) that means a full 6.4% of the population is 10th level. And, if you add up everyone 10th level and up, you're talking better than 10% of the population. That's pretty much not infinitesimal.
I've edited this, as I posted it before I realized that Derren had been asked not to post. Hopefully this is ok. I've attempted to make this somewhat neutral, focusing on discussions (by several parties) of elven reproduction rates, without focusing on his comments.
I think something that everyone can agree that the idea of a race taking 100 years to generate a grown adult would definitely have their backs against the wall. Yet, the rules don't really say this. All the PHB really says is that adventurers typically start their careers around 100+ years. It doesn't say anything about their maturity levels before that.
So, this morning, I decided to look in the closest source to core that we have....Masters of the Wild.
Now, I'll admit that I did find in the book that it mentions that elves are less fertile than humans, and that a typical elven couple might have 1-4 children over 50 years, whereas typical human couples have 1-4 over 10 years.
Of course, there have also been spells in the rules that increase fertility...both in 2nd And 3rd Eds. they caused the target to conceive or impregnate (as appropriate based on the gender of the subject) with 100% reliability during their next "encounter". If the elves were seriously pressured, I could definitely see them using that magic, which was very low level.....like lvl 1 or 2 spells....so, accessible to a large number of their spellcasters. I will 100% admit that these spells are not core. They were in Green Ronin's Witch's book, or Relics & Rituals, or something like that. And in one of those big religion books for FR in 2nd Ed. I'll need more time to find the specific reference. The point is that elves have a fair number of spellcasters, and if they had just gone through a war, I could see them using magic to create a "baby boom". They're individualistic, but they're not stupid....and it's mentioned that they value children highly.
Anyways, Masters of the Wild states on pg. 13 that "Elf children grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so: a 10-year old elf boy and a 10-year old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity.". It then states that humans finish filling out between 15 and 20 years of age, whereas elves take until 25. The delay to 100 is a cultural delay....not a physical, emotional, or intellectual one. Similarly to how in North American cultures, they say now that 30 is the new 20. In our advanced culture, people are often remaining somewhat dependent until their late 30's. But it doesn't mean that they're physically or emotionally incapable of surviving on their own. Masters of the Wild mentions that elves are discouraged from marrying before 100, though they're perfectly capable of doing so. It further mentions that when elven communities are under pressure, the delay to 100 is bypassed, and you have 25-year old elves, who are completely adult, taking part in war, etc. as necessary. They are not child soldiers at that point, as elves are fully grown in all ways by 25.
Further, it states that they are raised communally by their people, after the age of 10, which means that they're far less a drain on any individual family than even human children are on their own families.
This is very very different from the idea of them taking 100 years to reach adulthood.
It's perfectly possible to have an adult elven adventurer at age 30. The impression given is that the elves spend more time training their people...they're investing more in their "human capital" than humans do. I think the people who are suggesting the demographic charts in the DMG are likely not really applicable to elves might be correct. For all we know, PC elves tend to start at lvl 1 at around 100 years old. But maybe there are many 100 year old Commoner 2/Fighter 2's walking around in elven villages. They gained training and experience between ages 25 and 100, but, given they're NPCs, it's unlikely that they'll progress as rapidly as the elven PC, who starts at lvl 1 (to balance against other PCs), but will rapidly outstrip the abilities of the elven villagers from his home.
Banshee
I think something that everyone can agree that the idea of a race taking 100 years to generate a grown adult would definitely have their backs against the wall. Yet, the rules don't really say this. All the PHB really says is that adventurers typically start their careers around 100+ years. It doesn't say anything about their maturity levels before that.
So, this morning, I decided to look in the closest source to core that we have....Masters of the Wild.
Now, I'll admit that I did find in the book that it mentions that elves are less fertile than humans, and that a typical elven couple might have 1-4 children over 50 years, whereas typical human couples have 1-4 over 10 years.
Of course, there have also been spells in the rules that increase fertility...both in 2nd And 3rd Eds. they caused the target to conceive or impregnate (as appropriate based on the gender of the subject) with 100% reliability during their next "encounter". If the elves were seriously pressured, I could definitely see them using that magic, which was very low level.....like lvl 1 or 2 spells....so, accessible to a large number of their spellcasters. I will 100% admit that these spells are not core. They were in Green Ronin's Witch's book, or Relics & Rituals, or something like that. And in one of those big religion books for FR in 2nd Ed. I'll need more time to find the specific reference. The point is that elves have a fair number of spellcasters, and if they had just gone through a war, I could see them using magic to create a "baby boom". They're individualistic, but they're not stupid....and it's mentioned that they value children highly.
Anyways, Masters of the Wild states on pg. 13 that "Elf children grow almost as swiftly as human children to age 15 or so: a 10-year old elf boy and a 10-year old human boy are nearly the same size and have similar mental and emotional maturity.". It then states that humans finish filling out between 15 and 20 years of age, whereas elves take until 25. The delay to 100 is a cultural delay....not a physical, emotional, or intellectual one. Similarly to how in North American cultures, they say now that 30 is the new 20. In our advanced culture, people are often remaining somewhat dependent until their late 30's. But it doesn't mean that they're physically or emotionally incapable of surviving on their own. Masters of the Wild mentions that elves are discouraged from marrying before 100, though they're perfectly capable of doing so. It further mentions that when elven communities are under pressure, the delay to 100 is bypassed, and you have 25-year old elves, who are completely adult, taking part in war, etc. as necessary. They are not child soldiers at that point, as elves are fully grown in all ways by 25.
Further, it states that they are raised communally by their people, after the age of 10, which means that they're far less a drain on any individual family than even human children are on their own families.
This is very very different from the idea of them taking 100 years to reach adulthood.
It's perfectly possible to have an adult elven adventurer at age 30. The impression given is that the elves spend more time training their people...they're investing more in their "human capital" than humans do. I think the people who are suggesting the demographic charts in the DMG are likely not really applicable to elves might be correct. For all we know, PC elves tend to start at lvl 1 at around 100 years old. But maybe there are many 100 year old Commoner 2/Fighter 2's walking around in elven villages. They gained training and experience between ages 25 and 100, but, given they're NPCs, it's unlikely that they'll progress as rapidly as the elven PC, who starts at lvl 1 (to balance against other PCs), but will rapidly outstrip the abilities of the elven villagers from his home.
Banshee
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