The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[Edena_of_Neith]

Huh. Okay. I'll ban them as a PC race.

Actually, a campaign where debased elves skulk in the miserable places of the world, guarding bits of past culture that are no longer understood, would be really cool.

LOL, Piratecat.
I sorta think the elves of the Great Swamp, in Greyhawk, fit that bill. Among others.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(nods to Cynic_devine)

Well met there, sir.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm bowing out of this. Nothing has changed in six pages of posts, and tonnes of information to the contrary.

Banshee

Why? Elves are always worth a discussion, even a long one.

Let's continue a friendly discussion.

 

[Cynic_devine]

(nods to Cynic_devine)

Well met there, sir.

Likewise. I am a little late in the discussion, but I hope I can contribute.

One point I would make is that I have played D&D & other rpgs along time (going on 27 years). In previous editions & in some settings I share you're frustration with elves & most demi-human. I won't say wizards has solved all my problems, but they have done some. The Races lines is good stuff & does take into account some realism.

If only Wizards could deal with some of the class problems now.

 

[Fifth Element]

Only in the sense that humans can field more troops. Individually elves are better trained. Also add in the overwhelming magic factor & humans really aren't.

Think of the scene in 300. "You see, old friend? I brought more soldiers than you did."

 

[mmadsen]

Why? Elves are always worth a discussion, even a long one. Let's continue a friendly discussion.

Edena, you have not been uncivil, but it does not appear that you're taking in anything anyone else is saying. You've written a large enough volume, but it doesn't seem to respond to any of the points being made, and I can't make heads or tails of it.

"Bunch of monkeys on the ceiling, sir! Grab your egg and fours and let's get the bacon delivered!", as GrumpyOldMan said.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It is true that we can't seem to agree on the subject.
From your point of view, I am not taking in or grasping what you're saying.
From my point of view, you're not grasping what I'm saying.

We're just have to agree to disagree, and discuss the subject from our individual perspectives.

However ...

I think that if you were to take some of the ideas posted in this thread, and put them in a 4E Player's Handbook, it would make the elves a more enjoyable race to play for many people.
By ideas, I mean *your* ideas. If *your* ideas expressed were put in the 4E Player's Handbook, it would be better. Both the Fluff and Crunch you've offered and presented.

In the past, I have noted a lot of players who did not like elves, either as a race or as PCs in their game. Forrester, that infamous killer-of-elves in the 1st IR, comes to mind.
And I ask: why do they dislike elves so? (Believe it or not, elves are *my favorite race.* I wouldn't discourse on them for so long otherwise.)

Well, I don't know why they don't like elves. Each to their own.
But I think it may have to do with too much explanation of the How, and not enough of the Why. As in, elves build mighty cities, are great mages, are impressive warriors, and eat berries in the forest. You know the clique. It started with Tolkien, has been going since.
Not enough of the Why. If elves outbuild dwarves, I certainly want to know the why of that! (and isn't elven chain better than anything the dwarves could offer, prior to 3E?) If elves can create great cities when they are forest critters, why is that? If elves are chaotic good but some of the worst racists around even to their own people, why is that? If elves are magically adept, why is that?

Much earlier on, I mentioned the idea of elves throwing Lifeproof to protect themselves. But I pointed out that I couldn't live with it without providing the Why, which dragged me into writing a whole backstory (ala Haldendreeva, and I didn't do so good a job on that.)

I was hoping for more of the Why in the 2nd Edition Complete Book of Elves. There was a lot of What, and a little of the How, but not much of the Why. ('In the elven treecity, all the elves take care of each other.' Ok. That's the What. Now, about the How? And the Why?)

There are so *many* supplements detailing the elven How. So many. But not nearly as much on the How, and the Why. It is frustrating.

In short, if elves live and play and work and frolic in those there woods, how and why?! (After 30 years of the What, I think a bit on the How and Why is justified. Don't you?)

Yes, you'all have given a *lot* of answers. And it would be good material for the game, I think. But our thinking and ideas, ultimately, end up only as house rules. Our musings will not make it to the core rules. Someone else, must decide how (or whether) to present things in the core rules.

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[mmadsen]

It is true that we can't seem to agree on the subject. From your point of view, I am not taking in or grasping what you're saying. From my point of view, you're not grasping what I'm saying.

I'm not sure what the subject is that we are disagreeing about. This whole time I've vaguely understood your argument to be that elves are doomed, because they have no special stengths and any number of weaknesses (namely pacificism and a slow reproduction rate).

Recently, it appeared that your argument switched to elves are doomed, because they do not rule the world, which is a backward sort of argument. Whatever they're doing must not be working; therefore they're obviously doomed.

Do I understand your argument?

My argument has been that you can easily have doomed elves or thriving elves; just change your base assumptions about how they operate. They've long been depicted as an ancient race that has fallen, like the Romans or Greeks from a medieval perspective, or like any number of legendary races from any number of mythologies, and they can serve as a metaphor for magic leaving the world, but that's up to you.

 

[Cynic_devine]

I think Wizards themeselves have dealt with a lot of the problems with elves in the Core materials. What we have is baggage from previous editions & certain settings. Seriously as a dire hard 2E player I was very suprised at the changes to a lot things in 3.5.

Elves are awefully different. Halflings changed about as much (from hobbits to gypsy ninjas).

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'm not sure what the subject is that we are disagreeing about. This whole time I've vaguely understood your argument to be that elves are doomed, because they have no special stengths and any number of weaknesses (namely pacificism and a slow reproduction rate).

Recently, it appeared that your argument switched to elves are doomed, because they do not rule the world, which is a backward sort of argument. Whatever they're doing must not be working; therefore they're obviously doomed.

Do I understand your argument?

My argument has been that you can easily have doomed elves or thriving elves; just change your base assumptions about how they operate. They've long been depicted as an ancient race that has fallen, like the Romans or Greeks from a medieval perspective, or like any number of legendary races from any number of mythologies, and they can serve as a metaphor for magic leaving the world, but that's up to you.

I am conceding the debate.
3rd Edition Elves are not doomed.

I do not have enough evidence to make my case. Without sufficient evidence for a strong case, I do not feel that my case is legitimate enough, and I must conclude that the other posters have the right of it.

I can still point to the elves of many of the settings, and make a good case for them being doomed. That is besides the point, however. We have been debating the survival of all 3rd edition elves, not the survival of one group of them. So I cannot make my case from this evidence.

-

I would like to continue, however, the debate on the matter of elven reproduction. This is in the RAW.
Could someone put up the elven age groups (young, middle aged, old) from the 3.5 player's handbook, so I and we can discuss this?

Sincerely Yours
Edena_of_Neith