The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[Edena_of_Neith]

I do not vote for closing this thread.

I requested that someone put out the 3rd edition age tables for elves. This is relevant to the original topic, since reproduction is relevant to survival.
I do not have a 3rd edition PHB or DMG available to do this. Does someone else have the tables?

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

It has never been my intention to "win" the debate by browbeating you but to understand what you've been trying to say. Can you succinctly state what you were arguing?

I cannot state it in more simple terms than in my (very long) post on the last page, without producing distortion.
But I will do so anyways, distortion and all.
Here is the quick, and distorted, version:

Elves simply can't take it. They are not tough enough to handle life.
They do not have any special abilities granted as per the RAW to help them, either.
They must compete against races like humans who are tough enough, and against other races not only tough enough, but with special abilities as well.

None of that is in the 3rd Edition RAW. So I cannot 'prove' any of it.
The sole exception is the elven lifespan and reproductive rate, and that is a question mark, a point of debate, and a possible (possible, not certain) weakness for the elves.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I found that when I gamed with someone with a lot of blood sugar issues, food logistics would come up a lot in play. My player (who once stopped at the 7-11 on the way to lunch because she couldn't go a whole hour without eating) was constantly worried that the characters were as hungry as she would be in their shoes (there were minor food shortages).

So I imagine it arises at tables of guys who are fueled by constant consumption of carby snacks all day thinking about how thin and cool the elves are, and how far they are from your average brewery or deep fat fryer.

Actually, I've seen this effect happen as well, with hungry players.

 

[The Green Adam]

I think that if you were to take some of the ideas posted in this thread, and put them in a 4E Player's Handbook, it would make the elves a more enjoyable race to play for many people.

And therein lies my personal confusion on the subject from your particular take on the species.

My players love Elves. We think Elves rock. We enjoy them quite a bit. Regardless of the culture we've developed, we own the same Player's Handbook that you do.

If they Elves are as weak and doomed as you believe them to be, why are they in the book in the first place? Why do people like to play them? How could it be possible that they are some people's favorite race?

Simple. We all look upon the rules and the stories and see what we want to see. In some cases we see LotR, in others Greyhawk or Dragonlance. In my case I don't see any of these but an original concept influenced by all of these, faerie folklore and many of my own views. We all see something different. This is the beauty and genius of RPGs.

 

[fusangite]

Actually, I've seen this effect happen as well, with hungry players.

Glad it's not just me. This player was a tad eccentric and had an amazing ability to intensify and change play dynamics. The food was just one thing on a list of many. There was the episode she decided to feed all the comatose half-dragons cup of boiling fat, for instance.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

And therein lies my personal confusion on the subject from your particular take on the species.

My players love Elves. We think Elves rock. We enjoy them quite a bit. Regardless of the culture we've developed, we own the same Player's Handbook that you do.

If they Elves are as weak and doomed as you believe them to be, why are they in the book in the first place? Why do people like to play them? How could it be possible that they are some people's favorite race?

Simple. We all look upon the rules and the stories and see what we want to see. In some cases we see LotR, in others Greyhawk or Dragonlance. In my case I don't see any of these but an original concept influenced by all of these, faerie folklore and many of my own views. We all see something different. This is the beauty and genius of RPGs.

It is a paradox, I still believe.
One mentions a dwarf ... and people have a pretty good idea of what is being talked about.
Ditto halflings, drow, and even Dragonlance kender.
Gnomes are more nebulous.

But elves are nebulous, and yet they are in a million books, supplements, and magazines.
There are more types of elves around than I can shake a stick at: high, gray, wood, wild, valley, gold, silver, green, star, silvanesti, qualinesti, kagonesti, dargonesti, dimernesti, taladasian, aebrinian (northern continent), zakharian, athan, eberronan, kalamaran, mystaran, mystaran underworld, hollow world, tiefling elven, aasimar elven, other planar elven, ice, snow, mountain, sea, and jungle elves. That's just from the settings I can think of off hand. I haven't even started on the books.
A lot of different interpretations. When one says the word Elf, it requires a lot more explanation before there can be comprehension!

 

[fusangite]

But elves are nebulous, and yet they are in a million books, supplements, and magazines.

This is true. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to all the books, supplements and magazines about humans.

There are more types of elves around than I can shake a stick at: high, gray, wood, wild, valley, gold, silver, green, star, silvanesti, qualinesti, kagonesti, dargonesti, dimernesti, taladasian, aebrinian (northern continent), zakharian, athan, eberronan, kalamaran, mystaran, mystaran underworld, hollow world, tiefling elven, aasimar elven, other planar elven, ice, snow, mountain, sea, and jungle elves. That's just from the settings I can think of off hand. I haven't even started on the books.

Again, compare that to all the kinds of humans there are in literature and gaming supplies.

But nobody looks for some kind of generalized "this is how humans are," or "this is what will happen to humans," or "this is what a human would do," or "this is how human society is organized."

Maybe all this diversity is, itself, a message: there is no essential elf we will discover any more than there is a discoverable essential human.

A lot of different interpretations.

No. A lot of different kinds. There is a difference.

Teff farmers in Ethiopia, Panchama/Dalit labourers in North India, Communist intellectuals in Paris, Cherokee oil millionaires in Oklahoma and South Carolina NASCAR dads are not a bunch of different interpretations of humans. They are a bunch of different kinds.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I will find the book and look up the elven age tables for 3rd edition, bring them to this thread, and then discuss them, since nobody has them available. Now, if I can find the books ... where did I put them? ...

I can, generally, only refer to the real world in terms of fantasy settings that use it, such as Shadowrun, the World of Darkness, the Masque of the Red Death Setting, or the City Beyond the Gate from Dragon Magazine.
The prohibition against politics and religion is strict on ENWorld, so I cannot discuss real world humans in the terms you describe.

Also, most players I've ever known simply treat humans in the setting as ... humans. Period. Just ... humans. (There are exceptions, as usual. There are always exceptions.)
But elves? It's got to be a high elf, or a gray elf, or whatever. Or so said those I played amongst.

In reference here, to the word Elf, I mean the Elf as portrayed in the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook. That's RAW. All others are house elves (Harry Potter aside ...) or settings elves.
Now, if I can just find those books ...

 

[Fifth Element]

Here's your very first post in this thread:

Elves are not winners, not successful, not able to adjust or cope, not able to survive. These realities are built into the race in 3rd edition (as it was in 2nd and 1st edition and OD&D)

Here's your latest:

Elves simply can't take it. They are not tough enough to handle life.
They do not have any special abilities granted as per the RAW to help them, either.
They must compete against races like humans who are tough enough, and against other races not only tough enough, but with special abilities as well.

None of that is in the 3rd Edition RAW. So I cannot 'prove' any of it.

Can you see why so many people are confused by your arguments? From your original posts it appears you have been arguing that elvish weakness is "built into the race" in 3E. Eventually, you finally concede (correctly) that "none of that" is in 3E RAW.

Your arguments have been phrased in absolutes, whereas the reality is that you are merely stating your interpretation of elves. As you yourself point out, there are many, many interpretations of elves. You have typed many, many paragraphs attempting to argue that your interpretation is the "correct" one. But it cannot ever be, since it is only your interpretation.

 

[Fifth Element]

I will find the book and look up the elven age tables for 3rd edition, bring them to this thread, and then discuss them, since nobody has them available. Now, if I can find the books ... where did I put them? ...

At the risk of dragging this out even more...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

Remember, you've already conceded you can't prove any of your arguments.