The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

Edena_of_Neith said:
I will find the book and look up the elven age tables for 3rd edition, bring them to this thread, and then discuss them, since nobody has them available. Now, if I can find the books ... where did I put them? ...

I can, generally, only refer to the real world in terms of fantasy settings that use it, such as Shadowrun, the World of Darkness, the Masque of the Red Death Setting, or the City Beyond the Gate from Dragon Magazine.
The prohibition against politics and religion is strict on ENWorld, so I cannot discuss real world humans in the terms you describe.
I don't think the policy would be violated.

Also, most players I've ever known simply treat humans in the setting as ... humans. Period. Just ... humans.
That's my point, Edena. The human race comprises many many cultures and within those cultures, there is also substantial diversity. There is no stock human response to a situation, no stock human settlement pattern, no stock human economy, etc.

Why would there need to be a stock elvish culture, response, settlement pattern or economy? Elves seem like nearly as diverse a set as humans. And just like humans, some of their cultures will fail and some will succeed; some of their countries will be poor and some, rich; some, militarily successful, some not. That's my point.
But elves? It's got to be a high elf, or a gray elf, or whatever.
The fact that elves can be of different sub-races does not mean that sub-race will be the only difference amongst elves. Sub-race is just one of the myriad of ways elves can be different from one another. It's not a final list.
In reference here, to the word Elf, I mean the Elf as portrayed in the 3rd Edition Player's Handbook. That's RAW. All others are house elves (Harry Potter aside ...) or settings elves.
You could substitute the word human in this sentence and see what would happen: "In reference here, to the word human, I mean the human as portrayed in the 3rd Edition Players' Handbook. That's RAW. All others are house humans or setting humans."

It is not a house rule for there to be different human cultures with different values, economies and lifestyles. Hence, no house rule or setting book is required for us to assume that there are different elvish cultures with different values, economies and lifestyles.

And thanks for the age table, Fifth Element. Evidently we've all been talking out of our asses/remembering 1e.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

fusangite said:
Why would there need to be a stock elvish culture, response, settlement pattern or economy?

This has been my biggest bitch with game settings for a long, long time. If I ever have a setting published (heh) it will be composed of many diverse non-human cultures. I find little satisfaction in the monolithic non-human culture paradigm.

joe b.
 

fusangite said:
You could substitute the word human in this sentence and see what would happen: "In reference here, to the word human, I mean the human as portrayed in the 3rd Edition Players' Handbook. That's RAW. All others are house humans or setting humans."

It is not a house rule for there to be different human cultures with different values, economies and lifestyles. Hence, no house rule or setting book is required for us to assume that there are different elvish cultures with different values, economies and lifestyles.

QFT. One cannot argue that elves are only as they are per RAW, without doing so for other races as well, including humans.
 

fusangite said:
I vote for closing this thread and starting a happy one somewhere else. Perhaps some sort of generic discussion about world building and demi-humans.

This is why I didn't want to post my idea here. This thread is such a morass I wonder how many people have given up on it.
 

Thank you, Fifth Element. A big thank you.

Elves:

Adulthood: 110 years.
Middle Age: 175 years.
Old: 263 years.
Venerable: 350 years

1. At middle age, -1 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
2. At old age, -2 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.
3. At venerable age, -3 to Str, Dex, and Con; +1 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

These are core RAW.

-

One thing is stated in the above: all the races suffer the same penalties at each age category.
The RAW are stating that elves suffer the effects of aging in a manner similar to humans. Their stats change just like those of the other races.

Another thing is stated clearly above: adulthood 110 years.

I'm afraid, folks, that this is a heavy blow against the elves. It doesn't mean they are doomed, but it sure hurts, and here's why:

-

There is something called the Mortality Rate per Year, or MRY.
In real life, it comes from infant mortality, child mortality, teenaged recklessness, accidents, age related illnesses, and so on. It can also arise from war, plague, and famine, or even injuries that become life threatening and prove fatal.

In any game where there is the slightest lethality (even one Player Character per 100 games killed) there is a MRY.
And if there is a MRY for PCs, there is a MRV for NPCs, monsters, and most everything else (not those immortal celestials and fiends, in theory ...)
What is the rate of this MRY? I don't know. It would vary from home campaign to home campaign, from setting to setting. It would vary from culture to culture, civilization to civilization, nation to nation, race to race.
For example, the MRY of the Silvanesti elves has proven to be much higher than the MRY of the elves of Evermeet. The MRY of the human population of Rauxes in Aerdi is much higher than the MRY of the people in the city of Greyhawk. The MRY of drow seems to be much higher than the MRY of the halflings of Luiren.

But regardless of the rate, there is - in any campaign with any sort lethality factor (which is nearly all D&D campaigns) - an MRY.
Where is there not an MRY? Well, if Melkor had not messed Valinor up, followed by the Numenorians, then Valinor would not have had an MRV ... except wait, the wife of Finwe died having Feanor, so even Valinor has an MRV.
Get my point? ALL places have an MRV, except places where all things are immortal.

Now ...
This means both humans and elves have an MRY.

But HUMANS grow up quickly and start having children at 15 (the chart says they become adults at 15.)
ELVES grow up more slowly and start having children around 110 (the chart says they become adults at 110.)

MRY is cumulative per year. If the MRY rate is 1 in 1,000 per year, then one rolls a 1,000 sided dice, and if one's number comes up, one dies (of course, it's due to a specific event, not a roll of any dice ... so that's a metaphorical descriptor.)
Every year, both the human and the elf must roll that dice. Each year, the chance in the metaphorical descriptor is the same: 1 in 1,000
But as you all know, if I could take 100 of these dice and roll them, the chance of that number coming up is much greater than 1 in 1,000. (If I roll 3d6, the chance of my rolling one 6 is greater than 1 in 6. If I roll 10d6, my chance of rolling one 6 is much greater than 1 in 6.)
Thus, there is a significant lethality, a significant MRY danger, for anyone sticking around for 100 years, if the scenario has any real level of lethality in it (which is the case in most D&D games, for PCs and NPCs alike.)

The danger level in a scenario is up to the DM, but the numbers I am quoting (humans reaching adulthood at 15, elves reaching adulthood at 110) are RAW. Canon. 3rd Edition core.

-

Thus, before an elf can have his or her first child at the age of 110, he or she must have survived 110 years of MRY.
The human man or woman must have survived only 15 years of MRY, before they begin having children.

And while it is quite true that the MRY will take it's toll on the humans, if they were to manage 2 surviving children per couple and these children survived to have 2 surviving children themselves, on average ... and so on, generation through generation, for 110 years ... with generational turnover occurring over 40 year periods ... in 110 years 2 humans would produce approximately 8 surviving offspring.
Meanwhile, the 2 elves have only just grown up, and haven't had any children yet.
That's 8 to 2.

And that means the humans have 8 contenders against the MRY, while the elves only have 2 attempting survival.

In D&D terms, this is a crushing blow to the elves.
It does not mean the elves are doomed. But it means they have a serious problem. A real serious problem.
If the MRY in the setting is high and elves are humans are sharing it equally, the humans will survive long after the elves are gone. If the MRY is very low and the elves escape most of it while humanity shoulders the brunt of it, the problem is not so bad ... but it is still there.

In the old 'classical' approach we discussed, where elves started having children at 100, and had maybe 2 or 3 children per 1,000 years, the MRY advantage of humans would be so overwhelming, so crushing, that the elves would be quickly eclipsed.

The MRY problem the elves face is worsened by the rapid reproduction rate of orcs and other humanoids of that sort.
These jokers reproduce like bunnies, in the 'classical' scenario. Thus the orc hoards hundreds of thousands strong every hundred years or so (rolls eyes.) And other humanoid hoards.
The MRY amongst these humanoids is astonishingly high, but their birth rate and overpopulation rate is so great that it overcomes even the MRY, and they produce these colossal hoards of monsters.
And then the poor elves (and humans also) have to deal with these guys.

What is worse yet, far worse, is that in 3rd edition every race may have a class.
This does not mean they DO. This does not mean that every orc is a barbarian or every kobold a sorcerer.
But it *does* mean that these abominations could exist, and if they do they have no level limitations or class limitations. I think the 3rd Edition RAW even suggest that some of them are proficient in certain classes, and one will find those classes within that race.
And once more, the poor elves (and humans also) have to deal with them.

The drow are stronger in 3rd edition, because the level and class limitations on them were dropped, thanks to the RAW.
Thus, if the 2nd edition drow do not change their behavior of launching assaults on elves, in 3rd edition (and nothing in the RAW suggests the drow have changed) then the elven MRY is further increased.

Also, there are logistical problems with having and raising children. For the elven couple who wishes to have 65 children (1 per year, for 65 years) they are going to face serious obstacles (obviously) in their family planning.
Thus, if the elves attempt to 'keep up' with humans (much less orcs) in procreation, they are going to have to be clever and creative and adjust their society to cope with large numbers of children and adolescents.
They can do this. I'm not saying they can't. It would make for an alien civilization (since humans do not raise families of 65 children) of note.

Thus, elves are doom ... :) ... elves have a king sized headache, maintaining their race in the face of their slow reproductive rate versus their MRY.
 

Thus, elves are doom ... ... elves have a king sized headache


Allow me to correct the above statement.


Thus, elves are doom ... ... elves, in your imaginary game world, have a king sized headache



And shouldn't we rather discuss how these hordes of orcs continually find the resources to breed into numberless hordes when they also traditionally must carve out an existence in mountains, badlands and so on.


Or why dragons (substitute Balors, Pit Fiends, Incorporeal undeads or any other powerful monster of your particular liking) aren't already ruling the world. I mean how many great wyrms does it really take to seize all power and kill all humanoid contenders.



I'll repeat myself one last time. The actual rules of the game have ONLY to do with player - player and player - opponent relationships. Extrapolating actual societies, cultures or worlds from the rules will result in nonsense most of the time.

Those kinds of social institutions should be ruled by imagination and the simple law of "If it is fun, flavourful and dramatic, lets go with it"


Since elves and their survival is such an issue for you, why don't you just dole out whatever powers, immunities, etc. that you would like them to have. It doesn't matter to anyone else, you don't need anybody's approval or consent.

It's your game, you can do whatever you want. That's the beauty of roleplaying. It is all imagination :)
 
Last edited:

And ...
Many of you are, legitimately, pointing out that there are numerous variations on elves besides the elves in the RAW. Of course there are. There are as many races of elves as I can shake a stick at, and more.

But I am discussing only the elves as described by the RAW.
The debate, as I am phrasing it, is over the 3rd Edition elves, RAW, core rules.

Other elves, house elves, are not being debated. (There is, obviously, no way I could ever make any assertions about such elves, for they are as their particular DM wants them to be.)
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
But regardless of the rate, there is - in any campaign with any sort lethality factor (which is nearly all D&D campaigns) - an MRY [Mortality Rater per Year].
There is not one mortality rate though. The mortality rate for elves is vastly different from the mortality rate for humans, which is only a weighted average for different kinds of humans living in different places with different lifestyles.

Just as mortality rate differs from place to place and time to time, so does reproduction rate. Even if all humans are biologically human, the reproduction rate of middle-class Americans is nothing like the reproduction rate of medieval peasants -- and elves likely change their reproduction rate drastically depending on their circumstances.

What is true is that long-lived elves who invest mightily in each offspring would be safety-conscious. Like modern Americans, they would value blood more than treasure, and they would spend a tremendous amount on military magic (which is analogous to technology) rather than throw lives away. Orcs would make the opposite trade-off.
 

Edena_of_Neith said:
Many of you are, legitimately, pointing out that there are numerous variations on elves besides the elves in the RAW.
No, Edena. Re-read what I said. What I said was that there are many variations within the elves described in the RAW, just as there are many variations within the humans described in the RAW.

Do all RAW humans in all possible cultures in all possible D&D worlds have exactly the same culture, birth rate, mortality rate, population growth rate, economy and society? Of course not. We don't need to change the rules governing the race "human" to produce wide variations. Why would we need to change the rules governing the race "elf" to produce the same wide variations?

All humans have the same average stats, the same bonuses and penalties, the same age table, the same height and weight table. And yet, some cultures flourish while others die out. Some human cultures have high birth rates and yet never grow. Some human cultures have low birth rates and expand anyway.
The debate, as I am phrasing it, is over the 3rd Edition elves, RAW, core rules.
Agreed.
Other elves, house elves, are not being debated.
Right. But given what we already know about human culture diversity in D&D, we have proof positive that your group does not need to have different stats in order to have a different culture, society, birth rate or mortality rate.

So, unless you would like to posit that all human cultures are essentially identical and will have essentially identical consumption, growth and settlement patterns, you cannot make such a claim about elves.
 

Also notice that dwarves has a very long lifespan similar to elves (but not quite to the same extent), and would have similar problems related to that.

Add to that the fact that dwarves live underground....what do they eat, fungus?...so I guess dwarves are probably doomed as well.

Anyone want to do gnomes?
 

Remove ads

Top