The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[Jim Hague]

You can deny it all you want but the similarity of D&D elves to Lotr elves and the early books clearly show that D&D was inspired by LotR. The hobbits have changed over the editions but the elves have not.

You say clearly, but the origin isn't clear at all....especially since Tolkien's elves weren't pacifist tree-huggers. For that matter, neither are DnD elves immortal. So beyond a few cosmetic similarities, can you actually provide any proof, like, say, from the creators or current writers?

And as the PHB describes the default elven society which is in effect as long as a campaign setting does not specifically overrule it I feel pretty comfortable to use it as basis to argue that D&D elves would not survive as society.

Except that the PHB doesn't make any sort of setting assumptions. Guidelines, and nothing more, sorry...especially in light of actual campaign settings that take your thesis and pretty much kick it to the curb.

Maybe you should reread what fusangite asked me. "Why do you think..."


1. Read PHB elven lands
2. Knowing that elves live in small woodland communities and don't clear trees to farm, how do they support themself?

Right back at you - they support themselves just fine via their abilities, Derren. You want to try and throw the PHB non-setting into this, I'll gladly throw it right back at you.

And where do all those hired guards come from? And are they enough to stop larger bands of bandits?

Considering that no sane merchant is going to go near an army-sized gang of bandits, then yes. Such guards seemed to work just fine on Earth during a variety of periods. As for how? Well, gosh, right there in the PHB, the elves seem to be doing quite fine with what they trade and sell, both goods and services...so I'd guess the guards are hired with money.

You fail to look at the circumstances again. They survive as small communities but survival is not enough. To fend off all the elf hating races which breed much faster than them they do not need to only survive but to prosper.

And where's your proof of this happening anywhere but your campaign world? I've got the PHB right here, and I'm not seeing any genocidal wars mentioned...

And I never disputed that elves have a martial society, after all every elf learns to use a sword and a bow, but as they would not have the HP and BAB warriors have the milita would have high casulties in a conflict, casulties small elven communities can't cope with.

So...every elf is trained at the minimum as a militia member, they have Wizards as a favored class, can live to exceedingly excessive ages...but they can't defend themselves? Your lack of logic here puzzles me greatly.

Where is the proof that elves have many magical items? The wealth by community size table says something different.

Simple logic - favored class (wizard) and quite a long time to create items (as mentioned upthread) equals a larger proportion of magic items. And those are human communities you're mentioning there, sorry.

And elves simply can't afford to be agressive. As I explained again and again, their low reproduction rate makes a war against a other, fast breeding race useless as those race will recover from the war (even if they loose) much faster than the elves do so in the end the elves will come out weakened even if they attack and win. The only way to prevent that is genocide (which leaves room for other powers to take the place) or occupation (which teh elves do not have the troop strength for).

So find me the exact demographics of elves in the PHB, since you're so focused on it. I'm sure we'll all wait for those precise numbers, when you arrive with them. Except that there are no exact numbers - a community of 200 or so seems small...but how many communities are there? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? You don't know, you can only conjecture, because it doesn't state it anywhere in the PHB...because the PHB provides rules, not a setting.

 

[Storyteller01]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but here's my two cents.


There where sociaeties active during the dark ages that lived rather well off the land comparitively. Life was short due to a number of reasons, but large amounts of natural resources would have a group foraging or hunting 20 hours a week for food. Indians come to mind. Villages around the Amazon do as well. If I recall, the film 'Jungle 2 Jungle' was shot on location, and the villagers didn't seem plagued by death, famine, or incredible workloads.

Heck, if you compare the 1800's indians were living better off than the beggars found in 'civilized' society until diseases and reduction of resources took its toll (much of which being deliberately created situations). Now thrown in magic. Could you imagine how well they would have survived if several of their numbers were druids?

It was as recently as ten years ago that villages in the Amazon region had members in better health and states of cleanliness than those small villages relying on supplies for industrial areas.

Given this, I don't see elves having a problem surviving in a well forested area.

 

[Derren]

You say clearly, but the origin isn't clear at all....especially since Tolkien's elves weren't pacifist tree-huggers. For that matter, neither are DnD elves immortal. So beyond a few cosmetic similarities, can you actually provide any proof, like, say, from the creators or current writers?

I am sure that there are quoates from Gygax around which tell the sources of D&D I just don't know where to find it. But that you are not willing to accept even this little fact despite all the evidence speaks much about your willingness to discuss.
PS: In earlier editions elves were immortal.

Except that the PHB doesn't make any sort of setting assumptions. Guidelines, and nothing more, sorry...especially in light of actual campaign settings that take your thesis and pretty much kick it to the curb.

*sigh* Exactly because the PHB doesn't make any setting assumptions makes it the default. When a setting does not say something else the elves behave like in the PHB. They are the default and how WotC envision elves to be.
Using your arguments I can say that dwarves are tall, good looking scholars who can't do any physical labor because I can make a campaighn setting where dwarves are large have +4 Cha but -6 to all physical stats. But that would not be normal D&D dwarves those dwarves are like they are presented in teh PHB and the same applies to elves. Only because you can make a campaign setting where elves are different from the PHB does not mean that D&D elves are like in your campaign setting and not like they are in the PHB.

Right back at you - they support themselves just fine via their abilities, Derren. You want to try and throw the PHB non-setting into this, I'll gladly throw it right back at you.

Support doeasn't mean that they prosper. And maybe you will understand this: WHen you see a wrong matematical equation you normally take the formula and calculate the correct result. What you are doing is to take the result and change the formula so that the result is correct.

We know the elven stats how they live and what enemies they have (formula)., Now the PHB says that they survive very well under this condition (result) which is wrong. By "recalculating" the formula you get the conclusion that the real result is that elves would die out. You say that the books say that the elves survive and so all the information about their lifestyle is wrong.

Considering that no sane merchant is going to go near an army-sized gang of bandits, then yes. Such guards seemed to work just fine on Earth during a variety of periods. As for how? Well, gosh, right there in the PHB, the elves seem to be doing quite fine with what they trade and sell, both goods and services...so I'd guess the guards are hired with money.

And what when the band of bandits (50 or so) come to the merchants? With all the diamond trades elven trade routes are a good target. How many guards have the merchants to hire to compensate for the lack of elven military presence.

And where's your proof of this happening anywhere but your campaign world? I've got the PHB right here, and I'm not seeing any genocidal wars mentioned...

Then you should read more D&D books. Begin with the MM entry of orcs and hobgoblins and then read the deity descriptions of Corellon and Gruumsh.

So...every elf is trained at the minimum as a militia member, they have Wizards as a favored class, can live to exceedingly excessive ages...but they can't defend themselves? Your lack of logic here puzzles me greatly.

Not every elf is a trained milita member, they just know how to use a sword and a bow. They have no training in actually hitting things with them (BAB), how to avoid blows (HP) and wear armor (profiency). Long lives don't mean much when they have to wait five times as long as other races for a child to grow up to be a soldier. By that time other races already have level 20 heroes. And having a favored class wizard only means that elves are better to mix spellcasting with other occupations, but multiclassing a wizard is a rather bad idea. Not to mention that the number of elven wizards is still limited by the number of exceptional elves with higher than normal Int.

Simple logic - favored class (wizard) and quite a long time to create items (as mentioned upthread) equals a larger proportion of magic items. And those are human communities you're mentioning there, sorry.

No, that are PHB race communities. Only the racial mix table does change. And while elves have long lived wizards, humans have a lot more wizards than them. So where is the advantage? Also elves need also people to use the magical items. 500 magical swords do you no good when you only have 100 warriors. Not to mention that the MM elf entry features a distinctive lack of magical items.

So find me the exact demographics of elves in the PHB, since you're so focused on it. I'm sure we'll all wait for those precise numbers, when you arrive with them. Except that there are no exact numbers - a community of 200 or so seems small...but how many communities are there? 10? 100? 1000? 10,000? You don't know, you can only conjecture, because it doesn't state it anywhere in the PHB...because the PHB provides rules, not a setting.

How much space do hunter/gatherer societies need to survive? quite a lot that means the population density of elves would be quite low comapred to other civilized nations. And with all the disadvantages elves have especially the low reproduction rate it is very unlikely that they have a population size compareable to other races unless their god created them several thousand years before the other races appeared.

 

[Hussar]

I am sure that there are quoates from Gygax around which tell the sources of D&D I just don't know where to find it. But that you are not willing to accept even this little fact despite all the evidence speaks much about your willingness to discuss.
PS: In earlier editions elves were immortal.

Ok, while I know my rules fu is pretty weak in 1e and 2e, I know that's not true. Elves lived for centuries, and IIRC, grey elves won the Methuselah award at around 2000 years, but none of the D&D elves were immortal. Just really, really long lived.

No, that are PHB race communities. Only the racial mix table does change. And while elves have long lived wizards, humans have a lot more wizards than them. So where is the advantage? Also elves need also people to use the magical items. 500 magical swords do you no good when you only have 100 warriors. Not to mention that the MM elf entry features a distinctive lack of magical items.

Ahh, but, just because I have more wizards doesn't mean a whole lot when power is accrued exponentially. A single 5th level wizard is pretty much a match for 10 1st level wizards. One invisibility spell plus a fireball and all his problems vanish. When I've got centuries to gain levels, I can be very choosy and only go when I know I'm going to win. For humans to race up the levels, they have to take very big risks plus, given the nature of humans, other humans are going to try and stop them.

Elves can afford to take a REALLY long view. A single level every decade still sees them at 20th level before middle age. Sure, humans can have 100 times as many wizards, but, they can only field a very, very small number of high level ones. Elves, simply through what amounts to accumulated interest, can field dozens, if not hundreds of high level characters.

Never mind just wizards, what about all the classes? Every Elf, by middle age, should be well into double digit levels. That means that about half your population is a high level character. While a 20th level commoner isn't exactly a powerhouse, he's more than capable of kicking butt against anything in the single digit level range.

The human wizards cannot create that many magic items simply because they run out of time. It takes such a significant portion of their lifespan to reach very high levels that they are lucky to be able to crank out more than a couple of powerful items. Elves can spend a decade between crafting Staffs of the Magi regaining xp.

 

[Jim Hague]

I am sure that there are quoates from Gygax around which tell the sources of D&D I just don't know where to find it. But that you are not willing to accept even this little fact despite all the evidence speaks much about your willingness to discuss.
PS: In earlier editions elves were immortal.

You make the claims, you provide the proof. Since you can't or aren't willing to provide such proof, your claims remain suspect.

*sigh* Exactly because the PHB doesn't make any setting assumptions makes it the default. When a setting does not say something else the elves behave like in the PHB. They are the default and how WotC envision elves to be.

Except that elves in Eberron, Greyhawk and FR don't follow the PHB pattern. 3:1 against doesn't make your point, and provides extensive support against it.

Using your arguments I can say that dwarves are tall, good looking scholars who can't do any physical labor because I can make a campaighn setting where dwarves are large have +4 Cha but -6 to all physical stats. But that would not be normal D&D dwarves those dwarves are like they are presented in teh PHB and the same applies to elves. Only because you can make a campaign setting where elves are different from the PHB does not mean that D&D elves are like in your campaign setting and not like they are in the PHB.

Nor does slavish repetition that because the PHB says elves are one way make it true. There is no 'D&D setting', not in the PHB, nor in the DMG. Therefore your claims are, again, false.

Support doeasn't mean that they prosper. And maybe you will understand this: WHen you see a wrong matematical equation you normally take the formula and calculate the correct result. What you are doing is to take the result and change the formula so that the result is correct.

Condescension isn't a very good tactic to take, especially when you have yet to provide real proof of your claims. I'm changing nothing, simply quoting the selfsame rules you're looking at and pointing out the flaws in your arguments.

We know the elven stats how they live and what enemies they have (formula)., Now the PHB says that they survive very well under this condition (result) which is wrong. By "recalculating" the formula you get the conclusion that the real result is that elves would die out. You say that the books say that the elves survive and so all the information about their lifestyle is wrong.

Nobody's recalculating anything, Derren. Where are you getting this from? You're the one drawing spurious conclusions here, not me.

And what when the band of bandits (50 or so) come to the merchants? With all the diamond trades elven trade routes are a good target. How many guards have the merchants to hire to compensate for the lack of elven military presence.

In what campaign world? Where do the books say this? Nowhere? Exactly - you're making this up.

Then you should read more D&D books. Begin with the MM entry of orcs and hobgoblins and then read the deity descriptions of Corellon and Gruumsh.

Tell you what, slick - when you have well over $3000 in just D&D material, then you can tell me to go read something. I'm not the one making unsupported claims here - you are.

Not every elf is a trained milita member, they just know how to use a sword and a bow. They have no training in actually hitting things with them (BAB), how to avoid blows (HP) and wear armor (profiency). Long lives don't mean much when they have to wait five times as long as other races for a child to grow up to be a soldier. By that time other races already have level 20 heroes. And having a favored class wizard only means that elves are better to mix spellcasting with other occupations, but multiclassing a wizard is a rather bad idea. Not to mention that the number of elven wizards is still limited by the number of exceptional elves with higher than normal Int.

Trained in weaponry means combat training in D&D. Typically, non-military members of a community with combat training are referred to as militia. Nowehere does it say that elves grow more slowly than any other race, only that they reach full maturity at 110, according to the PHB.

No, that are PHB race communities. Only the racial mix table does change. And while elves have long lived wizards, humans have a lot more wizards than them. So where is the advantage? Also elves need also people to use the magical items. 500 magical swords do you no good when you only have 100 warriors. Not to mention that the MM elf entry features a distinctive lack of magical items.

Those human wizards die off much more quickly...better hope they wrote all their knowledge down somewhere. And once again, you're pulling numbers out of thin air. How many humans? How many elves? You don't know, because there are no numbers to support your claim.

How much space do hunter/gatherer societies need to survive? quite a lot that means the population density of elves would be quite low comapred to other civilized nations. And with all the disadvantages elves have especially the low reproduction rate it is very unlikely that they have a population size compareable to other races unless their god created them several thousand years before the other races appeared.

And now you're back to the unsupported hunter-gatherer nonsense. Why is it so important for you to cling to this image you have in your head of how elves 'should' be, especially in light of all the evidence to the contrary?

 

[Derren]

Except that elves in Eberron, Greyhawk and FR don't follow the PHB pattern. 3:1 against doesn't make your point, and provides extensive support against it.
Nor does slavish repetition that because the PHB says elves are one way make it true. There is no 'D&D setting', not in the PHB, nor in the DMG. Therefore your claims are, again, false.

Completly, utterly wrong. The setting presented in the core books (which uses mostly Greyhawk material) is the default D&D setting. All other settings are exceptions to the normal behaviour/rules.

Condescension isn't a very good tactic to take, especially when you have yet to provide real proof of your claims. I'm changing nothing, simply quoting the selfsame rules you're looking at and pointing out the flaws in your arguments.

You do not point out flaws, you just refuse to proof your points while constantly demanding that I post more proofes which you do not read anyway?.

In what campaign world? Where do the books say this? Nowhere? Exactly - you're making this up.

Are you really demnanding that the exisetance of bandits who try to rob wealthy merchants has to be specifically mentioned in a book, otherwise it does not exist? ROFL, now you are downright silly. I guess there are a lot of things which do not exist in your D&D worlds. Air for example (unless in elemental form).

Tell you what, slick - when you have well over $3000 in just D&D material, then you can tell me to go read something. I'm not the one making unsupported claims here - you are.

And you are still unable to open the PHB and MM to read the proof I am constantly bringing up? You are able to read, are you?

Trained in weaponry means combat training in D&D. Typically, non-military members of a community with combat training are referred to as militia. Nowehere does it say that elves grow more slowly than any other race, only that they reach full maturity at 110, according to the PHB.

Trainind in D&D means no -4 nonprofiency penalty when using the weapon. That is all what elves get. No warrior BAB, no warrior HP and armor profiency. And elves do need 100 or so years to grwo up. Before that they are unable to get any class level and so are rather useless.

Those human wizards die off much more quickly...better hope they wrote all their knowledge down somewhere. And once again, you're pulling numbers out of thin air. How many humans? How many elves? You don't know, because there are no numbers to support your claim.

Do the terms "Logical thinking" and "conclusion" have a meaning for you? Faster breeding age + more organized farming/resource gathering methods -> more individuals. More individuals -> more exceptional individuals. More exceptional individuals -> more PC classes. More PC classes -> more wizards.
Human wizards die much earlier than elves, yes. But humans also train new wizards much faster than elves. By the time a elf gets his first wizard level a human born at the same time has already reached his highest level as wizard, crafted some items and probably died of old age. He also maybe had severall offsprings which in turn might now be successfull mid to high level wizards which also crafted some items and had children themself.

And now you're back to the unsupported hunter-gatherer nonsense. Why is it so important for you to cling to this image you have in your head of how elves 'should' be, especially in light of all the evidence to the contrary?

Please. READ THE PHB!!!!! It is in there black on white that elves are hunter gatherers. That is how D&D elves live. That is how WotC envisions elves to be.

Instead of constantly accusing me of making unsupported claims you should start to actually read the proof I bring up. Elves live mostly in forests, its in teh PHB. Elves are hunter-gatherers, its in the PHB. There are several evil, fast breeding races which despise elves, it is in the MM. The racial god or orcs is a mortal enemy to the racial god of elves it is in the PHB.

READ IT!


@ All others

Am I really unreasonable when I expect that things which are written in the core books are sufficient as basis for my assumptions or as basis for a discussion of D&D races in general?

 

[Jim Hague]

Completly, utterly wrong. The setting presented in the core books (which uses mostly Greyhawk material) is the default D&D setting. All other settings are exceptions to the normal behaviour/rules.

Sorry, no. Nowhere in the PHB is any setting given. There are bits from several settings there, but there is no default setting in the PHB.

You do not point out flaws, you just refuse to proof your points while constantly demanding that I post more proofes which you do not read anyway?

You keep making claims with nothing to back them up. I've provided proof at every point. Your logic isn't, your claims are flat out wrong more often than not, and you continually descend into hyperbole and misquotation. I'm sorry, but that I don't put any credence to your claims isn't any failing on my part, but on yours.

Are you really demnanding that the exisetance of bandits who try to rob wealthy merchants has to be specifically mentioned in a book, otherwise it does not exist? ROFL, now you are downright silly. I guess there are a lot of things which do not exist in your D&D worlds. Air for example (unless in elemental form).

Hey, you're the one making claims about these mythical bandits...which would be campaign world dependent anyway. Nothing in the PHB or DMG to back up your claims, so we can safely dismiss them as inventions of your own.

And you are still unable to open the PHB and MM to read the proof I am constantly bringing up? You are able to read, are you?

And here's where you and I part ways, Derren. I'm sorry that you can't continue the thread in a civil manner. Proof has been given that rebukes your claims, and yet when confronted with it, you turn to insults instead of discussion.

 

[Derren]

And here's where you and I part ways, Derren. I'm sorry that you can't continue the thread in a civil manner. Proof has been given that rebukes your claims, and yet when confronted with it, you turn to insults instead of discussion.

Wrong. I am simply unable to take someone serious who is not able to read some simple sentences in the core books, especially when they also brag about how much D&D books they have.

The books are called core for a reason. They are the backbone of the D&D game and this backbone (as trivial as it is) include hunter gatherer elves. Nearly all the proof you demanded is in those books and I have said that multiple times. You have simply refused to read those proof and continued to accuse me to bring up unclaimed assumptions while the proof for those claims were in front of your eyes the whole time. Refusing the read the proof does not make the assumption derived from those proofes less true.

I am sorry when I went a bit far with some of my comments, your behaviour wasn't fine either. I know that it can be pretty hard to change my opinion but it can be done (like with the diamond issue). Especially when a rule book directly says that I am wrong. You on the other hand seem to refuse everything which goes against your opinion even if it is written in a rulebook. Whats even more insulting is that you do not simply ignore the whole point, but you only ignore the proof yet continue to demand proof from other people.
Its like sitting in a resturant and complaining to the manager that you still haven't recieved your order while the dish is standing right in front of you on your table.

 

[Piratecat]

Derren, do not post in this thread any longer, please. Insults simply aren't okay here. You need to be able to discuss the topic without taking personal shots at someone.

Email me if you wish to discuss this.

 

[mmadsen]

Dark Sun elves don't fit this mold...

Of course not. That was the point of Dark Sun, to break the mold.

At any rate, no one's going to win an argument over what elves are really like. It's only productive to state your assumptions and their consequences. For instance, if elves live like hunter-gatherers, then they won't have the population density of agrarian humans, which will make it difficult for them to hold the vast territory they need to maintain their society, etc.

Obviously elves can be either doomed or blessed, depending on what assumptions we make.