The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[Edena_of_Neith]

The answer to your question, monboesen, is yes.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The baseline for my elves came from the core setting of Greyhawk, starting just before the Greyhawk Wars.
There was an elven nation, tens of thousands strong, roughly where the Vesve is on the map (my Flanaess was a bit different, mapwise, from the canon.) These elves were akin to the elves of Highfolk off to the west.
They imported food, and exported finished goods. They created small cities within the forest, in the Myth Drannor style (but without it's mythal or magical prowess.) They had a fair sized textile manufacturing capability, a modest metallurgy industry, and a thriving local economy. They employed magic to ward off disease and infestation, and they were heavily communal in an effort to cope with the pitfalls and problems of such lifespans, and the care of large numbers of children.

During the Greyhawk Wars, they sent their small army (which consisted only of males) to the fortress city of Archendrea on the pass through the Clatspurs to the northeast, to protect their realm from Iuz. They suffered some losses, but Archendrea successfully warded them. Incursions from giants to the north were thrown back as well, since Miralea was the center of magical learning and the wizards there moved swiftly to counter the threat.
Otherwise, dwarven Chauntosbergen warded them to the east, (gnomish) Swantmoor and Veluna to the south, southwest and southeast, and (centaurian) Calrune and Highfolk to the west protected Delrune and her peoples.

As you know, the Greyhawk Wars destroyed nation after nation, people after people. Medegia, Almor, other parts of Aerdi, parts of Nyrond, much of Tenh, much of the Horned Lands, the Shieldlands, much of Furyondy, part of Veluna, much of Bissel, much of Gran March, Geoff, Sterich, the Hold of the Sea Princes, parts of Onnwall and Idee, the eastern half of the Principality of Ulek and the southern Wild Coast, and the borders of Celene, were all lain waste.
Most of the remaining lands suffered significant population loss. The MRY of the Flanaess was very high indeed during these several years of war.

Peace broke out due to general exhaustion, but everyone agreed the peace would not last long.
The elven people drove the humans from the Lendores, and made a sanctuary out of these isles for those of their folk ready for the sojourn to Arvandor.

The Greyhawk Wars are the canon for the Flanaess. Delrune was not canon, nor was Swantmoor, Calrune, or Chauntosbergen. For that matter, neither was the Spirit Empire of Garnak (Baklunish, south of the Paynims) or Istivar, east of Garnak and west of the mountains. And a secret elven nation existed, using powerful magic, in the woodlands east of the Theocracy of the Pale, right under the edge of the mountains.
Beyond the Black Ice were the Godspires, high mountains holding a legion of dark races and powerful monsters. This also was not canon. These dark peoples and monsters had united into one nation, known as the Solistari Empire. They stayed out of the Greyhawk Wars.
The region of waste between the Baklunish nations and the Celestial Imperium kept the Celestial Imperium out of the Greyhawk Wars. The nations further west yet had troubles of their own and did not become involved. Zingia and Nippon also stayed out, as did the mighty equatorial elven nation of Varnaith (not shown on the world map) west of Zingia. Negotations and skirmishes with the Scarlet Brotherhood occurred from these nations, obviously.
Hyperboria did not send any force to intervene in the Greyhawk Wars. But, the Solistari Empire recruited vast forces from Hyboria, and many powerful monsters living on the arctic continent decided to join forces with those in the Godspires, across the polar sea.
The yuan-ti empire in Hempmonaland did not involve itself in the Greyhawk Wars. But it did ally with the Scarlet Brotherhood. Other nations on the east and south coasts of Hempmonaland found themselves under attack from yuan-ti and Scarlet Brotherhood armies alike.
Off in the Solnor Ocean, the Skydwellers readied their forces, for an attack west from their large island nation against the feuding flannae peoples, wishing to take their lands. Only the Sea Barons knew of this, and they had already forged a secret alliance with the Skydwellers.
The sahuagin empire north of Zeif allied with the Solistari. The pearl elves in the Denzac Gulf had always been allies of Varnaith. The merman and triton lords of the Solnor wished to maintain their neutrality.
In the skies, gith mercenaries, elven fleets, scro armadas, illithid squidships, and a fair number of neogi slavers, among others, readied themselves to help their ground allies in the expected war to come.

A complicated mess? Yes. The Greyhawk Wars brought it about. They lit the fuse on a roomfull of dynamite.
The surface elves of the Flanaess suffered significant losses in the Greyhawk Wars. Now, they were caught up in this larger situation.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The Solistari War erupted.
The Solistarim took and destroyed Zeif, Ekbir, Tusmit, Ket, Ull, Perrenland, Highfolk, Calrune, half of Delrune, Swantmoor, Veluna, Furyondy, Bissel, Gran March, Verbobonc, the northern Wild Coast, the Shield Lands, and the western two thirds of the Empire of Iuz.
They drove Mordenkainen into exile, and destroyed the dwarven and giant nations of the Yatils. They slew Iuz outright. They besieged Greyhawk City. They devastated northern Keoland and the northern Lortmils and Kron hills.
The Spirit Empire of Garnak, Istivar, Keoland, and great forces from Nippon and Varnaith (Zingia remained neutral) fought back, slew the leader of the Solistarim, and the Solistari assault ground to a halt.
The Solistari withdrew suddenly, each dark race fearing treachery on the part of the other, leaving a vast scoured region of land behind them. A new leader kept the Solistari from launching a new assault, but the southern nations - depleted from the war and not wishing catastrophic losses in the Godspires - did not press the offensive.

What drove the Solistari? Simple. They wanted all that land for themselves. If others held those lands, those others were to be removed. Permanently. There would be no sharing of resources or space. Extermination was required.

Someone pointed out, earlier in this thread, that a dragon could kill thousands of humans and elves. Many dragons allied with the powerful Solistari, came south, and started a kill-fest. Nothing could withstand them, it seemed. Entire cities fell before them, and were burned to cinders and fused rock.

In the east, the Skydwellers attacked, and from their Flying Citadels devastated many parts of the Flannae east.
Unexpected by all, Acererak showed up in Rauxes, slew Ivid, and ascended the Fiend Seeing Throne himself, declaring himself Lord of Aerdi. The Scarlet Brotherhood immediately recognized his overlordship. The yuan-ti followed suit. Messagers from Acererak went to the Thillronian Peninsula, and those Suloise descendents quickly caved and joined the empire.
Most of Aerdi refused to recognize Acererak, as animuses and monstrous rulers everywhere pooled their strength against him. Acererak summoned infernal armies, and human help arrived from both north and south. War raged across Aerdi.

Nyrond and the Urnst nations fomed the Alliance of the Flanaess, in an effort to hold off the storm both east and west. The Adri was absorbed into this alliance.

Meanwhile, the Skydwellers assaulted everyone. Until magical ways were found to blow their citadels out of the sky. After that, they were reduced to raids, their main war effort aborted.

Turrosh Mak took advantage of the confusion to renew his own assault. Celene fell and it's people slain or driven out. The southern Lortmils fell, and Turrosh Mak avenged his people's slaughter of the Hateful Wars. The Duchy of Ulek and the other southern nations were already under attack. Now they had orcs in the mountains to the east.
Finally, once the Solistari had fallen back, the allied nations assaulted this orcish nation. But Turrosh Mak had the help of the scro, and held out against the combined strength of Varnaith, Nippon, Keoland, and the Pearl Empire. After numerous battles and severe losses on both sides, the war was broken off.

Finally, Ahlissa, Irongate, Sunndi, Rel Mord, the Grandwood, central Aerdi, the Sea Barons, and the Lendores were all in Acererak's hands. North Kingdom remained free (it had joined the Alliance of the Flanaess), along with several other northern cities and areas. Acererak broke off the assault and began the reorganization of his new empire.

In the underdark, the drow and the illithid evolved great empires of their own, ignored by those on the surface.

This mess, known as the Solistari War, killed more than half of all the elves in the Flanaess. Highfolk, Celene, and the Lendores were gone. Veluna was in ruins and it's elvish population decimated.
Elven populations elsewhere were depleted as they were forcibly swept up in the war, or sent aid to allies, or were targeted in colossal magical assaults. And after the war, Acererak and the suloise had no use for elves, and enslaved those in their lands. In the Thillronian peninsula, where the people were friendly to elves but allied with Acererak anyways, the elves and humans lived in a detente (both wondering when Acererak would send an edict their way concerning the situation.)
Varnaith and the Pearl Elves were not so badly affected. Both suffered moderate losses only.

But in Delrune, the western half the country had ceased to exist. Half it's people were dead. Perrenland, Highfolk, Calrune, Swantmoor, Veluna, and Furyondy were gone. Only Chauntosbergen remained, and those elves of the Vesve beyond, as organized allies and trading partners.

This situation proved to be both the How and Why of the later Haldendreevan elves. What ended as Haldendreeva, began with this horrific situation in Delrune.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The post-Solistari War situation in Delrune was not conducive to a long and happy life for anyone.
The shedding of so much blood might as well have been the fall of celestial acid onto the gutrock of the Flanaess. The gutrock shattered, volcanoes exploded, lands cracked apart, some lands rose, and other lands fell.
Delrune had been an area of hills with a cold temperate climate. Now it gradually sank into badlands and sordid pools, and the climate turned subarctic in the east, and subtropical in the west. Volcanic fumes and ashfalls were common in the west.

No food imports were available. The elves had to relearn how to produce food, with limited soil to work with, and forests tainted and poisoned. The elves had to recover from the shock of losing their capital city and half their people in a single blow, in those numbers an equal number of civilians and soldiers alike.
Meanwhile, raiders from the wastes about struck at Delrune, Chautosbergen could not give aid (it was under attack from the illithid), and the drow struck gleefully at their weakened surface brethren.
And all the while, the threat from the Solistarim in the north, efreeti and salamander and several red dragons from the west, Acererak to the east, and a nascent illithid nation to the south (where Furyondy had been) had to be dealt with.
Further help from elven Varnaith was not possible, because Zingia and Erypt had both invaded it simultaneously, and the Scarlet Brotherhood had joined in the fun. Nippon remained neutral, and Varnaith - as powerful as it was - was beset.
Help from Greyspace did not come. The elven spelljamming fleet was engaged in war with the scro, and helping Varnaith as they could.
Help from other planes was summoned, as much as the elven wizards remaining in Delrune (Miralea still stood) could manage it. But elves in other worlds had their own troubles, and generally would not send armies to help (although individuals came.) Instead, they invited the elves of Delrune to migrate as refugees to their lands on those other worlds.

A great number of the elves of Delrune took this out, and left Oerth permanently for other worlds.
More fled on foot, travelled the wastes to Keoland, and sought shelter in the south.
Some fled to Chautosbergen, were accepted by the kindly dwarves there, and a mixed people arose there.

The remainder, eking out an existence in the ruined hills of Delrune, became militant, paranoid, and most turned from the Seldarine to the darkness for power.
Lolth appeared amongst them and offered her alliance, and the alliance of the drow, if the elves would embrace her. Some elves - so traumatized by their situation as to be out of their minds - accepted, and some were seduced.
Eventually these elves dominated over all the others, the drow came to the surface in Delrune, and the alliance of the two races saw the rise of a Corrupted People.
Now militarily strong again, these Corrupted People fortified and entrenched, ensured their own short term survival, and - like the drow themselves - lived a generally miserable existence.

When the elves embraced the darkness, the Faerie left Delrune. The elves, in accepting dark power, threw away their greatest remaining ally and hope. Most of them considered it a case of good riddance. Such was the misguided nature of these Corrupted Elves.

But that was not the end of their evolution. Other events were yet to come.

 

[mmadsen]

It would be better, if we had more Rebuttals and fewer Rebukes in this debate.

That was not meant as a rebuke. I honestly don't believe that you've recognized what the race rules describe, which is not how a typical member of that race is, but what advantages or disadvantages a character of that race gets over similar characters of the same class and level.

Does making the typical elf 10th-level, which is totally reasonable given their lifespan, solve your problems with them not having enough advantages over other races?

There is no reason, Mmadsen, that an elf need be any different from any of other races. Or they can be very different. The 3rd edition rules demand nothing here. The DM and players are free to do as they please with elves.

Does that address your point?

I don't think so...

How do you handle the What, How, Why, and fantasy aspects of your elves, in your setting? What philosophical approach do you take, to your creation?

I try to think about how a race or culture resembles a real-life culture (or bits of various cultures) from our own history, and I work from there.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The Doomgrinder clicked into position. Vecna and his Legions came from the past into the present.
Vecna elected not to become a deity. Conversely, he was not opposed by any deity directly.
Kas came forward in time also, ready to oppose Vecna. But Iggwily the Arch-Traitor had foreseen the coming of Vecna and was enamored of him. She slew Kas and hid his sword.

The combined strength of the Flanaess would have been sufficient to withstand Vecna, had they been united and at full power. But the Flanaess and other places were decimated and divided. And Acererak declared himself Vecna's loyal vassal, and placed himself and his services at Vecna's feet.

Vecna immediately went on the offensive, after emerging from Tovag Baragu in the heart of the Spirit Empire of Garnak.
He decreed annihilation for all the Baklunish, all elves, all drow, all humanoids, and most other chaotic beings. His legions, countless millions strong, moved swiftly to make those edicts into reality.

The Union of the Flanaess - Furyondy, the Urnst Nations, Nyrond, Keoland, the Duchy and County of Urnst, the Yeomanry, Greyhawk City and the Council of Eight, Varnaith, Nippon, the Pearl Elves, the Pomarj (Turrosh Mak faced destruction otherwise), the Fellreev, and others allied against Vecna. Even the Celestial Imperium joined.
But Delrune stayed apart, Chauntosbergen out of sheer terror did not join, the Solistarim refused to even talk to diplomats sent their way, Zingia declared it's support for Vecna against Varnaith, and the Skydwellers were indecisive. The drow refused to ally with anyone, but the illithid immediately and eagerly took Vecna's side, much to Vecna's pleasure (they would be rewarded for this, later on.)
The Baklunish would have joined, but the war was over for them before they had a chance.
Other nations of Oerik in the west did not heed the diplomats in time, so by the time they armed and readied, the war was upon them. In Greyspace, the powers out there simply did not react fast enough, and the war was upon them also, by the time they were ready.

Swiftly Vecna destroyed the Baklunish, then the drow under the Hellfurnaces, Crystal Mists, and Barrier Peaks, then the Valley of the Mage. He then crushed the Union of Oerth, broke the Celestial Imperium, accepted the surrender of the Solistarim and Skydwellers, then conquered the western parts of Oerik.
Simultaneously, his legions destroyed the Pearl Elves and the merfolk and triton nations of the Solnor Ocean.
Acererak's peoples were spared. Vecna allowed that suloise humans would become citizens of his new Suloise Imperium. The oeridians and flannae would be allowed to remain ... as slaves. Dwarves were welcome to remain, as long as they worked for him. The illithid were granted full rights and vast cattle farms to suit their needs, and given large realms to be their own. Halflings were useless to Vecna, so they were given over to the illithid. Gnomes were considered chaotic, and exterminated wherever they were found. As a general rule, the solistari races were spared, and put to work for the greater glory of the suloise people.
A similar situation to the one in the flanaess, occurred elsewhere across the planet, then across Greyspace. Trade with other crystal spheres broke off. The gith mercenaries fled the system, along with many others.
Vecna declared himself Emperor, and made his new seat of power Greyhawk City. He began the restoration of the Sea of Dust to it's original green state.

Peace descended upon Greyspace, Oerth, and the Flanaess. Vecna's peace.

In Delrune, the elves and drow - regardless of their new dark power - found themselves up against an opponent they could not win against. They fought, and they perished. All of them.
All except the elves of the city of Haldendrea. That city was missed, for the same reasons one stepping on thousands of ants might miss some of them. The fifteen thousand elves therein found themselves suddenly alone, totally isolated, and not daring any communication outbound.

The blood spilled caused the planet of Oerth to convulse.
The Yatils heaved upward in plateaus, lakes of magma, and spewing volcanoes. The Yatils crumbled and sank beneath the waves of the Whyestil (Chautosbergen remained, however.) The former ridges of Swantmoor surged up into a line of jagged teeth. All the land northwest of what had been Perrenland rose into highlands.
Delrune sank, badlands and all. The pools grew and joined. The poison from blood shed spread into every tree and shrub, every rock, every inch of topsoil. The now frigid Whyestil enlarged and ran into the region. The new swamp spread into former Calrune, and right up to the cliffs of the convulsing Yatils. It spread north to the highlands beyond Perrenland. It lapped at the base of the rock spires to the south. It became known as the Great Grungy Swamp.
The climate of western Delrune became superheated, the east arctic, and the central region where Haldendrea was became stormy, alternating from hot to cold, water to snow, pure air to poisoned air.
Very quickly after this happened, all manner of monsters came into the swamp. The swamp killed most of them, but some thrived and made a bad place even worse. The civilized races around the Swamp avoided it, and - thinking all the elves therein were dead - Vecna turned his attention elsewhere, to bigger things.

This, then, was the environment in which the elves of Haldendrea had to live in, from that point on.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Now I ask you, mmadsen ... how would your elves - assuming they were in the place of the fifteen thousand remaining surviving elves of Haldendrea - do? How would they cope? How would they survive?
What answers would they choose? What civilization, if any, would they create? What answer to their problems would they find?

That question goes for the rest of you.

Or, feel free to go back in time in the scenario, to a time when Delrune was less beset, and tell me how your elves would have handled things.

 

[mmadsen]

[H]ow would your elves -- assuming they were in the place of the fifteen thousand remaining surviving elves of Haldendrea -- do? How would they cope? How would they survive?

You have doomed your elves, Edena. They have lost to a stronger foe who will begin the hunt anew as soon as they show themselves.

With a population of just 15,000, cut off from any possibility of trade, they will have difficulty maintaining a highly complex society.

I assume they would try to preserve their culture, build up their defenses, and work the land (in a very elven way) to improve its productivity -- all while maintaining secrecy.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The elves of Haldendrea did maintain secrecy. In this, you are quite right.
The elves also tried to reassert their culture, by disassociating themselves from the dark they had embraced (see below.)
There was, indeed, an attempt at food production. It proved a little harder than the elves had hoped it would prove (see below.)
The elves were unable to build up a defense, other than those they already had. All their effort went into finding food and water, and trying to survive in their new, hostile world.

Theirs, was a sorry state.

-

The first thing the elves did was appreciate the deities of evil had failed them.
Recognizing that the evil clergy among them would not quietly go, the elves struck first and killed them. After that, the elves destroyed all the shrines to the evil deities they had turned to after the Solistari War.
The few drow amongst the elves perished in this assault.

The elves subsequently tried to return to the Seldarine. They found no contact was possible. They then attempted contact with other neutral and good deities. No contact was possible.
It has been determined since that the Seldarine deliberately did this, foreseeing in it the only remaining hope for their surviving children in Delrune.

But the elves did not see it that way, obviously.
They were now bereft of the ability to cure wounds, cure disease, create food, or create water. The now flooded (in 5 feet deep water) city of Haldendrea had a few weeks of food and fresh water on hand.
Safe water was only available otherwise through rainwater, and even that was tainted slightly by volcanic chemicals.
Safe food was not available. The animals of Delrune were almost all gone, or mutated into abominations. The birds were gone or mutated. The trees and brush were sickly from the poisoning in the ground.
Blasts of snow and frigid cold alternated with blasts of furnace heat, blizzards and thunderstorms in turn, with near hurricane force winds. Under this assault, the trees and shrubbery mostly perished.

-

But on one side, away from Haldendrea around 10 miles towards the erupting Yatils, it remained warm enough that the trees and shrubs did not die. They remained, twisted and mutated, sickly and pale, affected by the blood shed and poisoning and rotting of the bedrock below, and the volcanic fumes above.
Between Haldendrea and this bonanza of possible food (bonanza???) was 10 miles of deadwood, poisoned water, slimy mud, black ichor, lifeless and broken trees and shrubs, and a few twisted, mutated green trees and shrubs that had magically adapted to the changes in air and climate. Of these few, most were sentient and carnivorous, attacking anything that came near.

Yes, this was the world of the Haldendrea elves.

But if you pity them, consider what Vecna was doing to their kindred elsewhere. Nation by nation, place by place, hiding hole by hiding hole, he found them. He killed the lucky ones. The rest were brought back for his entertainment and for magical experimentation.
Some elven nations, like Varnaith, fought back fiercely, and it took Vecna a long time to defeat them. This, naturally, infuriated Vecna, who made *special* examples out of them to serve for all the others.
But nobody thought to look in the dead swamp, considered uninhabitable, and covered with choking volcanic smog or powerful storms. And those charged with magically sweeping for elves with divination never bothered with the dead swamp ... with the Great Grungy Swamp, as they called it. They were too busy, in any case, with the remaining elves, and with the drow of the Underdark, who fought to the bitter end against Vecna and all his allies (the illithid, especially.)

Several precious decades were bought, for the elves of Haldendrea, by the heroics of their fellows, and the mad desperation of the drow.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(muses)

The reason the elves survived those first horrible years after Vecna's Ascendance, was because they were *elves.* Not humans. Not drow. Not great warriors. Not great wizards. Not because they had great stats. Not anything else. But because they were *elves.*
As elves, they had inner strength and magic which arose to the fore in this crisis. This was not something that had been recognized before, although it had been often seen ... and dismissed.
The elves developed Agnakok abilities, then became Agnakoks, gaining full immunity to the heat, cold, and poisonous air. They became able to eat the sickly vegetation, along with the occasional monster caught and killed. They also took to eating insects. Later on, they attained immunity to sunblindness. These abilities exist in all Oeridian elves today, seeded from that time and carried over to the present, hundreds of years later.
But it came at a cost. The elves grew to greatly love eating leaves and bugs, and nothing else except ... captured enemies. They discovered that a captured enemy eaten alive, granted life force and greatly enhanced sustainance. A just killed enemy granted some extra power. A simply dead foe, or a non-enemy (such as an animal, living or dead) provided nothing extra at all, and the elves never touched these.
The elves took to chewing wood, especially recently cut livewood. It did not sharpen their teeth, but it seemed to promote health. Chewing on the bones of eaten foes provided demonstrable energy, and was commonly practiced.

The elves discovered that they could call clerical spells out of themselves (in spite of the rules in the 1E Dungeon Master's Guide about this.) The Power of Miracles did not just come from deities. It came from within themselves.
But unlike the Dragonlance SAGA situation, the elves of Haldendrea found that they could pull full power from themselves, and raise in level as clerics, just from their own strength.
Thus they at first slowly, then rapidly, regained low and mid level clerical magic.

A greater part of the elves did not live to see this happen.
Faced with more pain, physical and psychological, than they could possibly bear, some chose to fade away to Arvandor. Some foolish ones tried to escape the Swamp (they didn't make it out.) Many died of hunger, poisoning, infections, wounds, disease, and infestation. Still more died from the suffocating air, the frigid cold, and the sweltering heat. Many just keeled over in exhaustion and lay in shock, too weak to act or stand or whisper for help, and went out into the dark.
The survivors, all 5,000 of them, who lived to see the day they had regained much of their clerical magic and become agnakoks, were the ones with a fanatical desire to live combined with the greatest inner strength to live.

Thus, the elves gained the Supernatural Abilities of Lifefire and Spiritual Adamance (great strength of body, mind, and spirit to resist and endure all adversary, supernatural physical resistance to dying, and a supernatural ability to resist being corrupted or broken by magic or psionics.)

None of this comes from the RAW, of course.