The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]

[mmadsen]

What is worse yet, far worse, is that in 3rd edition every race may have a class. This does not mean they DO. This does not mean that every orc is a barbarian or every kobold a sorcerer. But it *does* mean that these abominations could exist, and if they do they have no level limitations or class limitations. I think the 3rd Edition RAW even suggest that some of them are proficient in certain classes, and one will find those classes within that race.

The fact that there's no explicit limit placed on orc classes or levels does not imply that orcs hold the same classes at the same levels as elves. Can we agree on that?

A typical elf might be a 10th-level character -- whether an expert, bard, ranger, wizard, or some mix -- and a typical orc might be a 1st-level character -- a barbarian, if he's part of an attacking horde.

What the race rules tell us is how an Nth-level elf differs from a similar character of another race. The rules do not demand that a typical elf be the same as a typical orc except for those few stated differences.

 

[fusangite]

mmadsen,

Edena has conceded the debate twice. I think it's time to stop baiting him and move on.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Oh, this whole thread is just silly. You make a lot of assumptions about elves. Your whole argument revolves around the phrase, "Elves have the same problems as Humans." However, from what I have read, you miss the key point, just because they have the same problems as humans doesn't mean they resolve those problems the same way as a human counterpart might.

An Elf Druid could make food grow in abundance with little effort and low level, now they have time to frolic and dance, really, that there ruins your whole argument, but let's explore a little more. Water in the forests is not always stagnate, today's society has done that to most of our drinking water, not nature, although nature can, just not as frequently as you seem to think.. Elves could like to have lots of kids, I don't recall anything saying they don't. Just because they live a long time doesn't mean that a pregnancy last longer than 9 months like a human, you just assume it does because of the long life span.

Also, from Dragon Lance Tanis' son grew up to adulthood rather quickly, under 30 years. Granted he is 1/4 human, but he is mostly elven. By your theory he should have been a new born for 100 years. There is nothing to say, other than simpleton humor, that an elf will spend 80 years in "huggies" or that he even stays an infant for a long time. It could be that they grow as children rather quickly, say reaching the equivalent of our teenage years, as soon as 13-30 years, then drastically slowing down in terms of aging. Just because they don't start adventuring careers until after a hundred years doesn't mean they couldn't do so earlier and certainly doesn't make them lazy.

For all you know, perhaps they populated the whole of the world long before the first human ever set sight on the world. Perhaps in that time they developed advanced technology, like forging metal or whatever, and then hoarded that knowledge to themselves. Then, over the following centuries they decided to gift the lands they deemed unworthy, plains, desserts, mountains etc, to the humans and other races and took the forests for themselves. Now you have an advanced society that doesn't share technology, much like the Vulcans in Star Trek Enterprise (they made he humans learn it for themselves) who chose the best and most lush forests as their home. They have no want for food because the lazy 1,000 year old 5th druid and the semi lazy 600 year old 3rd level cleric have provide for many through prayer and druid powers (by the way, I would suspect that a 1,000 year old elf might just be a tad higher level than 5th). They have advanced technology, but haven't had a need to really craft anything for centuries and they chose to keep to themselves and observe the outside world rather than interfere with it. They were there before the humans came and they will be there long after the humans have killed each other.

Obviously you are a city person, I can tell by your lack of love for the outdoors. 99% of the people in Minnesota would love to live in a nice cabin away from the world, deep in a forest, bugs and all. Actually, good thing that you don't live in a fantasy world because you would inflict hate crimes on the elves and plague them with your racism. Seriously, if this is the best you have to offer on why the elves are dying out, I think you should go back to the drawing table.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Oh, and there are tribes today that have lived in South America for thousands of years and did just fine, eating plants and hunting for food until we decided to go in and cut down the forest for paper. Then they started to die off because we introduced them to diseases like the common cold, but they survive other diseases that we can't, like Malaria. If you are born into the setting, you develope immunities or resistances.

 

[mmadsen]

Edena has conceded the debate twice. I think it's time to stop baiting him and move on.

My apologies, but I don't think he ever addressed the point I was trying to make:

What the race rules tell us is how an Nth-level elf differs from a similar character of another race. The rules do not demand that a typical elf be the same as a typical orc except for those few stated differences.​

That is, the difference between an elf and an orc is not just the difference in game mechanics for a PC choosing one race versus another.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

My apologies, but I don't think he ever addressed the point I was trying to make:

What the race rules tell us is how an Nth-level elf differs from a similar character of another race. The rules do not demand that a typical elf be the same as a typical orc except for those few stated differences.​

That is, the difference between an elf and an orc is not just the difference in game mechanics for a PC choosing one race versus another.

It would be better, if we had more Rebuttals and fewer Rebukes in this debate. I will admit that.
I have conceded that the rules allow elves to survive. Whether or not they survive otherwise is a matter of philosophy, and up to the individual DM.

There is no reason, Mmadsen, that an elf need be any different from any of other races. Or they can be very different. The 3rd edition rules demand nothing here. The DM and players are free to do as they please with elves.
Does that address your point?

-

What is still worth the discussion is a *serious* philosphical discussion of elves.
Imagine that we are writers and game designers. Far fetched? Hardly. We are DMs, and a DM must be both writer and game designer, minus the appreciation that a published writer or game designer would get, and (regrettably) sometimes minus the appreciation of his or her players.
Now imagine that you have decided to put elves in your campaign, along with all the other creatures and circumstances of the place.
You then design the What of the elves. They have ... cities? ... nations? ... specific cultures? ... a specific place amongst the others? ... tend towards certain classes?

The What of the elves is in all the published settings. That is, Greyhawk, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Kalamar, and so on.

But let's say we want to go further. Our writer's instinct drives us. We want the How.
The How can be derived from the game mechanics, or extrapolated separately, or just plucked straight from the imagination.

Then, we want the Why. And again, that can come from the rules, or extrapolation, or straight from creativity and imagination.

Elves, like all fantasy races, are just that ... fantasy. So a certain suspension of belief is required. So, just how much do we suspend belief with them? How far do we go? And how do we do it, specifically?

Writers and game designers deal with this all the time. And so do DMs. We are DMs.

How do you handle the What, How, Why, and fantasy aspects of your elves, in your setting?
What philosophical approach do you take, to your creation?

In another thread above, someone has asked: Is murder what is required to succeed (as a Player Character, I presume) in D&D.
Well, that is a philosophical question and a question concerning the game mechanics, both. But I'd call it more of a philosophical question in general.
D&D has a lot of philosophy in it.
Let's discuss the philosophy as it relates to D&D elves.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Oh, this whole thread is just silly. You make a lot of assumptions about elves. Your whole argument revolves around the phrase, "Elves have the same problems as Humans." However, from what I have read, you miss the key point, just because they have the same problems as humans doesn't mean they resolve those problems the same way as a human counterpart might.

(snip)

They were there before the humans came and they will be there long after the humans have killed each other.

(snip)

Obviously you are a city person, I can tell by your lack of love for the outdoors. 99% of the people in Minnesota would love to live in a nice cabin away from the world, deep in a forest, bugs and all. Actually, good thing that you don't live in a fantasy world because you would inflict hate crimes on the elves and plague them with your racism. Seriously, if this is the best you have to offer on why the elves are dying out, I think you should go back to the drawing table.

Now this is a Rebuke. A long and thought out post, a lot of effort and time put in here, and also quite a Rebuke.
I will answer this Rebuke, by once more describing the What, How, and Why of the elves of my setting, known as the Elves of Haldendreeva.

As this will be a long article, and I must temporarily leave the computer, I will be back with the full tale.
Be back, and I will expand on this post. And yes, there is a lot of philosophy - albeit rather dark philosophy - in that tale.

Yours Sincerely
Edena_of_Neith

 

[gizmo33]

How do you handle the What, How, Why, and fantasy aspects of your elves, in your setting?
What philosophical approach do you take, to your creation?

In the first place I think the race is created from the perspective of "this is an adventure game". I don't think many people have the kind of technical knowledge necessary to conclusively establish that elves would have language, metallurgy, agriculture, and other society/technology factors that would allow them to be successful. In areas where you are an expert (like Tolkien was with linguistics), then I suppose it's an interesting excercise to create something for elves, but I would hardly think that it would be worth it in every single field that humanity is creative in.

The way I see it is that you can either become a genius-expert in every aspect of human society and survival, or you can just handwave the issues and accept that elves have corrected for whatever disadvantages you think they have. Because any one of the following is possible in areas where you are not a genius-expert:
a. you're wrong about the disadvantage
b. the disadvantage is pretty easily overcome by technology consistent with the elf persona
c. the disadvantage is pretty easily overcome with a trivial tweaking of elf biology
d. the disadvantage is easily offset by one or more advantages arising from a-c above.

I also strongly disagree that the SRD has anything to say about issues that would be pertinent to the survival of a race. The core rules (or indeed, probably any game rules) are incomplete from a simulationist perspective.

Another problem is that a lot of your analysis relied on making comparisons between elves and other races. It wasn't that elves were doomed on their own, your statement AFAICT was that they were just less advantaged than other races. This implicitly puts you in a situation of having to do an a-d analysis of every other race as well. For example - the advantages that you claim for orcs - as far as being violent and fertile, may very well be disadvantages in the light of other factors. Again, unless you're a PhD sociologist with a concentration in fantasy-races-that-never-were, I'm not sure how you conclusively prove anything in a single lifetime.

So IMO it's better just to get down to playing the game, and gloss-over any aspect of the world that's not fully formed (which is probably most, if not all). If you want to make up some fantasy forest-crops so that your elves have something to eat, why not? That's my philosophical approach to creation.

 

[monboesen]

How do you handle the What, How, Why, and fantasy aspects of your elves, in your setting?
What philosophical approach do you take, to your creation?

As little as possible.

I prefer to spend my precious game planning time to actually plan the game, rather than obscure aspects of the game world that rarely come into play.


If philosophic questions about elves should turn up in a game I would either pull answers out of my ass or acknowledge my complete ignorance and ask the players to move on.


All in all I suspect I have a very different approach to the game than you do Edena. I'll ask again out of curiosity. Do you actually play role playing games at all anymore?

 

[GrumpyOldMan]

How do you handle the What, How, Why, and fantasy aspects of your elves, in your setting?

I use two completely different types of elves in my games. But I did not ‘create’ either.

Elves are:
Sindarin: physically, they resemble humans but tend to be slimmer, shorter, graceful and fair. The Sindarin are immune to human diseases, tending to suffer from ailments of the spirit rather than those of the flesh. Unless they fall victim to violence, elves live forever. Their immortality profoundly influences their character, giving them great patience, sensitivity, wisdom and moodiness.
The elves neither farm nor keep livestock, not likeing to interfere with the natural beauty of their forest. They are, in effect, hunter gatherers of such skill that they never seem to starve or suffer a dearth of leisure time for the pursuit of their unique poetry-music and other arts. Non-sindarin are rarely permitted in their forest.
In comparison with others, elvenculture lacks structure. There are no unfree persons, no slaves, no serfs, but there is an enlightened nobility, served out of love, respect and tradition, rather than out of fear.
The elves of Hârn, from the first edition HârnDex.


Or, elves are:
Aldryami: These species belong to the vegetable kingdom. As essentially mobile plants, they are significantly different from other humanoids and beasts.
Elves and several related species commonly associate in a single forest community. Since all claim descent from (and actively engage in worship of ) the goddess Aldrya, the members of these mixed forest communities are collectively named after her -- Aldryami. Each species seems to derive from types of plant; in general, the size of any Aldryami depends on the size of its plant counterpart. Thus most of the Red Elves are frequently mislabeled as runners.
The Aldryami, especially the elves, are old antagonists both of dwarfs and of trolls.
Elves: slight of frame, quick, and intelligent, the elves of Glorantha are a species coupled to trees. They become quite shy when taken from their protective forests. Among their trees, elves are supreme, living in complete harmony with their environment.
The elves view themselves as caretakers of the forest, and their every activity is directed towards that end, ever ready to clear up an outbreak of giant aphids or incursions of human loggers or landclearing farmers.
Elves come in various races, identified as colors by humans, dependent upon the type of forest in which they are found. The Green elves are native to coniferous trees, the Brown to deciduous temperate forests, the Yellow to tropical jungle, and the Red to ferns and other primitive plants.
Dryads: these tree spirits are very much like the dryads of classical Greek mythology. Each of these wood nymphs is tied to a special tree, copse, or grove -- as her tree fares, so fares the dryad.
Runners: these are small elves, related to small plants the way elves are related to trees. The classification is important only insofar as runners usually lack intelligence and courage as well as size, while most red elves lack only size.
The Elves of Glorantha, from Introduction to Glorantha.