Edena_of_Neith
First Post
mmadsen said:
Is there any way they could have won, Mmadsen?
Or was what happened, sadly, inevitable?
The problem with elves take 2: A severe condemnation [merged]
- Thread starter Edena_of_Neith
- Start date
Is there any way they could have won, Mmadsen?
Or was what happened, sadly, inevitable?
Herobizkit
Adventurer
The Elves turn to their environment, and learn to adapt. Forsaking "clerical" magic, they reach out and try to get in touch with what few nature spirits reside in the polluted land... they become Druids... and begin to heal the land.
Perhaps some of them become Mystic Theurges and begin to create hordes of magic items.
I guess I'm coming in late, but I'm a huge fan of turnng adversity to fruition.
Perhaps some of them become Mystic Theurges and begin to create hordes of magic items.
I guess I'm coming in late, but I'm a huge fan of turnng adversity to fruition.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Alright then ...
After several years, the Great Grungy Swamp had become full of life again, life adapted to it's extremes of topography, climate, and adverse conditions. Quasi-magical trees were sprouting, and the swamp floor and marshes were covered in greenery.
The elves rebuilt homes around the ruins of Haldendrea in their new image, creating Mordenkainen's Mansions with all the lack of comfort of home (read: it was as much a cesspool inside as out.) The elves had grown to love their new environment, to think of it as home.
Even though they had regained access to arcane magic, and their divine magic was reasonably strong, and they could have altered the local area back into a truly habitable and nice place again, they did no such thing. They were quite content with how things were.
The number of monsters in the Swamp (the elves had heard of the new designation for Delrune - the Great Grungy Swamp - and were much amused) had skyrocketed.
The elves were in constant battle with these monsters. Life was constantly painful and harsh. Life was a crucible that the elves lived and breathed.
Thanks to the RAW, thanks to the D&D reality where overcoming adversary gains one experience and levels, the elves grew stronger by gaining levels. In roleplaying terms, they became more and more battlewise, more and more skilled at war, ever more accustomed to war and all it's horrors.
Their will to live ever increased, until they begin to actually glow with life force to those with eyes to see. Their mental fortitude and spirtual fortitude ever increased. They became harder to kill (the game mechanics altering more and more from the norm, the elves able at this point to go to -10 and remain conscious, and to -20 before they died.)
They metamorphosed into staunch, ferocious warriors, each and every one of them, regardless of any class taken, regardless of gender, regardless of age (except for the truly young.)
Vecna was still off fighting in Greyspace. His Legions were out with him. Subservient nations were arising in the shattered Flanaess under his rule.
One of these was the illithid nation of Isyrium, south of Haldendrea where Veluna and western Furyondy had been.
Illithid scouts penetrated the Swamp and ran into several elves. The elves killed them. Perceiving this new threat for what it was, many of the elves embarked on efforts to develop their psionic potential. A few of them proved to have that potential, and began to explore it.
At this point, the elves looked at the situation, and saw how grim their predicament was. The illithid would surely send more scouts, and eventually they would be discovered. That news would be carried back to Vecna, and then they would suffer the fate of all their brethren.
The elves had evolved enough arcane magic, or rediscovered enough in the ruins of old Delrune, to simply leave by creating a Gate.
The elves, elected to stay.
All 3,000 of them.
They threw a Ritual. On Toril, it might have been called a Mythal, but Mythals tend to affect areas, and this affected only the elves themselves. It enhanced certain behavioral traits, inhibited others, and prohibited certain behaviors altogether.
It prohibited:
- Elves killing elves (while allowing them to magically recognize other elves), harming other elves, or plotting any action deliberately intended to bring any harm upon an elf.
- Elves permanently leaving the community (it limited how long they could stay away at all.)
- Elves knowingly betraying the community (if unknowing, it killed them before they could betray.)
- Elves refusing to aid the community.
It inhibited:
- All prejudices towards other elves in the community for their ways
- Any tendency to look down on other elves in the community for any reason
- Any tendency towards verbal sparring or verbal aggression between elves of the community
- The ritual prevented elves, through the combined might of all of them, from being sucked in and devoured by evil magics and dark forces. (In effect, it served as a rope from which a cliff climbing elf could descend, right down into the depths of What Elves Were Not Meant To Know.)
- The ritual granted the elves telepathy among the community, at extremely high speed (a hundred times faster than human speech, and the ability to send images, points of view, and deep thoughts and feelings.)
- The ritual fortified the elven will to live further, bostering that will with the backing and strength of the entire community.
- The ritual conveyed constantly, endlessly, the value of other elven lives in the community, creating a situation where the well-being of one's fellows was of epic value.
- The ritual attempted to strengthen certain personality traits.
In honor of this ritual, which was successfully cast, the elves renamed their city Haldendreeva (the City that Transcends.)
But the ritual did not work out the way the elves intended.
For over a decade after the encounter with Isyrium and the subsequent ritual, no civilized force entered the Swamp, and the elves remained undetected by Vecna's Legions. Vecna finished his war of conquest, was annointed at Greyhawk City, then went off to work on further goals (to unseat the Lady of Pain in Sigil.)
But hoards of monsters made the Swamp their own, large numbers of undead emerged from the blood of the fallen, and the Elves of Haldendreeva were up to their ears in war.
The war changed them, bit by bit, into something unrecognizable.
They immediately started Raising their fallen after the Ritual. Because of the lifefire among them and the Ritual, the deceased desired to return. Better Resurrection spells were come by over time, making Resurrection easier until the elves finally perfected a Resurrection spell that cost no experience to cast.
After that, Resurrection was automatic if they could find your body. Then, you started leaving a lock of hair in case your body wasn't found. Then, your lifefire grew so great your Constitution could not drop below 10 from Resurrections. Finally, your Constitution could not drop at all.
After that, life and death lost their meaning. One merged into another and into another.
War stopped being war, and became a game. Because of the Ritual, you played it to the utmost of your ability and strength, and the Ritual drove you harder and harder with the passing of time, not less and less.
You stopped being afraid of dying or capture or torture. They became normal. You inflicted them as normal on the foe. Life lost all meaning except the meaning given by the Ritual, to fight for the elves, to fight for the community, to fight on endlessly, to go on fighting forever. To literally go on fighting forever.
You still cared about your loved ones. You still cared about your community. But you lived in an abstract world where war became life, where they were one, and if there was not war the idea of still being alive was unimaginable.
With this attitude becoming ever more prevalent and ever more pronounced, then extreme, the Elves of Haldendreeva took on all comers and won. As they won, they (within the RAW) gained more levels and hence more power and understanding. With childish glee, they turned greater power and understanding into greater war.
Then even this was not enough. The elves discovered a magic that would transform other beings into any other being, with all it's knowledge and skills and spells (if applicable) retained. They started using this to turn powerful enemies into Elves of Haldendreeva, who in turn were powerful. The Ritual immediately ensnared these new elves, made them over, and infused them with the particular madness of their new kindred.
Sometime late in this phase of their development, the elves discovered Lifeproof, and Lifeproofed their entire community in a matter of weeks. It is thought they used chronomancy, and actually it took them years to accomplish this goal. But the elves had made their first break throughs on magical and psionic longevity, and age itself was no longer a factor.
The RAW made the madness pay off, since D&D is a game based on killing.
Even the 3rd edition RAW for experience paid off, since as a general rule the elves hid from the bigger encounters until they were ready for them.
With each new high level spell or high level psionic power gained, the elves turned reality on it's head once more. With each new gain, they gained the power to practice their madness more. And practicing their madness just kept on making them more and more powerful, with more and more insight and understanding into becoming ever yet more powerful.
And still Vecna could not be bothered by the strange reports from his spies.
Something was happening in the Great Grungy Swamp. Something involving a lot of magic. Something scouts were not finding, because they never came back. Something involving elves.
Vecna dismissed the reports. Then grew irritated at further reports. Then gave his minions leave to go in and scour the Swamp for pests (he had decided no elves actually existed ... no elves could have survived in there, but some joker was trying to convince him of the impossible.)
Finally, a very annoyed Vecna, intent on his plans for overthrowing the Lady of Pain in Sigil, authorized his servitors and servitor nations to do something about the pests.
But Vecna himself still did nothing, spending every last minute in other plans and preparations, barely sparing a thought for the Swamp and it's problems.
It was now 18 years since Vecna had leveled Delrune.
At this point, every elf in Haldendreeva (many thousands strong now) was 17th level or higher. Many were in the lower epic levels.
All were quite insane. An insanity they had deliberately chosen, had deliberately inflicted on themselves, because it was the only way (other than flight) that they could survive.
The RAW for D&D and a conception born of frustration, made it all possible.
After several years, the Great Grungy Swamp had become full of life again, life adapted to it's extremes of topography, climate, and adverse conditions. Quasi-magical trees were sprouting, and the swamp floor and marshes were covered in greenery.
The elves rebuilt homes around the ruins of Haldendrea in their new image, creating Mordenkainen's Mansions with all the lack of comfort of home (read: it was as much a cesspool inside as out.) The elves had grown to love their new environment, to think of it as home.
Even though they had regained access to arcane magic, and their divine magic was reasonably strong, and they could have altered the local area back into a truly habitable and nice place again, they did no such thing. They were quite content with how things were.
The number of monsters in the Swamp (the elves had heard of the new designation for Delrune - the Great Grungy Swamp - and were much amused) had skyrocketed.
The elves were in constant battle with these monsters. Life was constantly painful and harsh. Life was a crucible that the elves lived and breathed.
Thanks to the RAW, thanks to the D&D reality where overcoming adversary gains one experience and levels, the elves grew stronger by gaining levels. In roleplaying terms, they became more and more battlewise, more and more skilled at war, ever more accustomed to war and all it's horrors.
Their will to live ever increased, until they begin to actually glow with life force to those with eyes to see. Their mental fortitude and spirtual fortitude ever increased. They became harder to kill (the game mechanics altering more and more from the norm, the elves able at this point to go to -10 and remain conscious, and to -20 before they died.)
They metamorphosed into staunch, ferocious warriors, each and every one of them, regardless of any class taken, regardless of gender, regardless of age (except for the truly young.)
Vecna was still off fighting in Greyspace. His Legions were out with him. Subservient nations were arising in the shattered Flanaess under his rule.
One of these was the illithid nation of Isyrium, south of Haldendrea where Veluna and western Furyondy had been.
Illithid scouts penetrated the Swamp and ran into several elves. The elves killed them. Perceiving this new threat for what it was, many of the elves embarked on efforts to develop their psionic potential. A few of them proved to have that potential, and began to explore it.
At this point, the elves looked at the situation, and saw how grim their predicament was. The illithid would surely send more scouts, and eventually they would be discovered. That news would be carried back to Vecna, and then they would suffer the fate of all their brethren.
The elves had evolved enough arcane magic, or rediscovered enough in the ruins of old Delrune, to simply leave by creating a Gate.
The elves, elected to stay.
All 3,000 of them.
They threw a Ritual. On Toril, it might have been called a Mythal, but Mythals tend to affect areas, and this affected only the elves themselves. It enhanced certain behavioral traits, inhibited others, and prohibited certain behaviors altogether.
It prohibited:
- Elves killing elves (while allowing them to magically recognize other elves), harming other elves, or plotting any action deliberately intended to bring any harm upon an elf.
- Elves permanently leaving the community (it limited how long they could stay away at all.)
- Elves knowingly betraying the community (if unknowing, it killed them before they could betray.)
- Elves refusing to aid the community.
It inhibited:
- All prejudices towards other elves in the community for their ways
- Any tendency to look down on other elves in the community for any reason
- Any tendency towards verbal sparring or verbal aggression between elves of the community
- The ritual prevented elves, through the combined might of all of them, from being sucked in and devoured by evil magics and dark forces. (In effect, it served as a rope from which a cliff climbing elf could descend, right down into the depths of What Elves Were Not Meant To Know.)
- The ritual granted the elves telepathy among the community, at extremely high speed (a hundred times faster than human speech, and the ability to send images, points of view, and deep thoughts and feelings.)
- The ritual fortified the elven will to live further, bostering that will with the backing and strength of the entire community.
- The ritual conveyed constantly, endlessly, the value of other elven lives in the community, creating a situation where the well-being of one's fellows was of epic value.
- The ritual attempted to strengthen certain personality traits.
In honor of this ritual, which was successfully cast, the elves renamed their city Haldendreeva (the City that Transcends.)
But the ritual did not work out the way the elves intended.
For over a decade after the encounter with Isyrium and the subsequent ritual, no civilized force entered the Swamp, and the elves remained undetected by Vecna's Legions. Vecna finished his war of conquest, was annointed at Greyhawk City, then went off to work on further goals (to unseat the Lady of Pain in Sigil.)
But hoards of monsters made the Swamp their own, large numbers of undead emerged from the blood of the fallen, and the Elves of Haldendreeva were up to their ears in war.
The war changed them, bit by bit, into something unrecognizable.
They immediately started Raising their fallen after the Ritual. Because of the lifefire among them and the Ritual, the deceased desired to return. Better Resurrection spells were come by over time, making Resurrection easier until the elves finally perfected a Resurrection spell that cost no experience to cast.
After that, Resurrection was automatic if they could find your body. Then, you started leaving a lock of hair in case your body wasn't found. Then, your lifefire grew so great your Constitution could not drop below 10 from Resurrections. Finally, your Constitution could not drop at all.
After that, life and death lost their meaning. One merged into another and into another.
War stopped being war, and became a game. Because of the Ritual, you played it to the utmost of your ability and strength, and the Ritual drove you harder and harder with the passing of time, not less and less.
You stopped being afraid of dying or capture or torture. They became normal. You inflicted them as normal on the foe. Life lost all meaning except the meaning given by the Ritual, to fight for the elves, to fight for the community, to fight on endlessly, to go on fighting forever. To literally go on fighting forever.
You still cared about your loved ones. You still cared about your community. But you lived in an abstract world where war became life, where they were one, and if there was not war the idea of still being alive was unimaginable.
With this attitude becoming ever more prevalent and ever more pronounced, then extreme, the Elves of Haldendreeva took on all comers and won. As they won, they (within the RAW) gained more levels and hence more power and understanding. With childish glee, they turned greater power and understanding into greater war.
Then even this was not enough. The elves discovered a magic that would transform other beings into any other being, with all it's knowledge and skills and spells (if applicable) retained. They started using this to turn powerful enemies into Elves of Haldendreeva, who in turn were powerful. The Ritual immediately ensnared these new elves, made them over, and infused them with the particular madness of their new kindred.
Sometime late in this phase of their development, the elves discovered Lifeproof, and Lifeproofed their entire community in a matter of weeks. It is thought they used chronomancy, and actually it took them years to accomplish this goal. But the elves had made their first break throughs on magical and psionic longevity, and age itself was no longer a factor.
The RAW made the madness pay off, since D&D is a game based on killing.
Even the 3rd edition RAW for experience paid off, since as a general rule the elves hid from the bigger encounters until they were ready for them.
With each new high level spell or high level psionic power gained, the elves turned reality on it's head once more. With each new gain, they gained the power to practice their madness more. And practicing their madness just kept on making them more and more powerful, with more and more insight and understanding into becoming ever yet more powerful.
And still Vecna could not be bothered by the strange reports from his spies.
Something was happening in the Great Grungy Swamp. Something involving a lot of magic. Something scouts were not finding, because they never came back. Something involving elves.
Vecna dismissed the reports. Then grew irritated at further reports. Then gave his minions leave to go in and scour the Swamp for pests (he had decided no elves actually existed ... no elves could have survived in there, but some joker was trying to convince him of the impossible.)
Finally, a very annoyed Vecna, intent on his plans for overthrowing the Lady of Pain in Sigil, authorized his servitors and servitor nations to do something about the pests.
But Vecna himself still did nothing, spending every last minute in other plans and preparations, barely sparing a thought for the Swamp and it's problems.
It was now 18 years since Vecna had leveled Delrune.
At this point, every elf in Haldendreeva (many thousands strong now) was 17th level or higher. Many were in the lower epic levels.
All were quite insane. An insanity they had deliberately chosen, had deliberately inflicted on themselves, because it was the only way (other than flight) that they could survive.
The RAW for D&D and a conception born of frustration, made it all possible.
GrumpyOldMan
First Post
Edena
It seems to me that, when you started this thread saying ‘all elves are doomed,’ what you you meant was, ‘because of the way I have run the world-changing wars in my campaign world, I have doomed the elves.’
It also appears that you really are not interested in generic answers to the ‘elf question.’ You’ve dug yourself into a hole as a referee, and you want help getting out of it. There have been eight pages on this thread, if you re-read them carefully you will find a lot of things that other people would have done differently.
You ask:
Edena, it is your campaign world, you made it happen, not Mmadsen, and certainly not the rules. If you’ve got an outcome you don’t like, that’s your fault. You can’t blame anyone else and you certainly can’t blame the rules.
Was it inevitable? No!
Could they have won? Yes!
How? That’s really for you to decide.
What could you have done? Pretty much anything you want! I don’t know enough about Greyhawk to make specific recommendations, but it appears that your elves were doomed by an unstoppable ‘evil alliance’ of your own creation.
A ‘Lord of the Rings’ solution, would have been to have the forests awaken and drive out the enemy.
A political solution would have been to have the Evil Alliance collapse into infighting as each separate part tries to consolidate their gains. Alternatively, while the armies and warlords are away, the long repressed ‘freedom fighters’ at home strike.
A military solution might (and I stress might, I don’t know the geography or politics) have been to have resistance movements spring up in the occupied states, think French Resistance WW2 or the ‘insurgents’ in Iraq. In both situations (for right or wrong) a few determined warriors can tie up a huge occupation force. Once an invading force is sufficiently stretched, they must stop and consolidate, or fail.
You could have done things differently, you didn’t.
In my view you have two choices.
Either, continue to use the world you’ve made and accept what you’ve done (and stop blaming the rules or the elves for what’s happened in your campaign).
Or, reset the game to an earlier point, or find a new world.
If your players aren’t happy with the world you’ve created, I’d recommend the latter. But there are opportunities too.
It seems to me that, when you started this thread saying ‘all elves are doomed,’ what you you meant was, ‘because of the way I have run the world-changing wars in my campaign world, I have doomed the elves.’
It also appears that you really are not interested in generic answers to the ‘elf question.’ You’ve dug yourself into a hole as a referee, and you want help getting out of it. There have been eight pages on this thread, if you re-read them carefully you will find a lot of things that other people would have done differently.
You ask:
Edena_of_Neith said:
Edena, it is your campaign world, you made it happen, not Mmadsen, and certainly not the rules. If you’ve got an outcome you don’t like, that’s your fault. You can’t blame anyone else and you certainly can’t blame the rules.
Was it inevitable? No!
Could they have won? Yes!
How? That’s really for you to decide.
What could you have done? Pretty much anything you want! I don’t know enough about Greyhawk to make specific recommendations, but it appears that your elves were doomed by an unstoppable ‘evil alliance’ of your own creation.
A ‘Lord of the Rings’ solution, would have been to have the forests awaken and drive out the enemy.
A political solution would have been to have the Evil Alliance collapse into infighting as each separate part tries to consolidate their gains. Alternatively, while the armies and warlords are away, the long repressed ‘freedom fighters’ at home strike.
A military solution might (and I stress might, I don’t know the geography or politics) have been to have resistance movements spring up in the occupied states, think French Resistance WW2 or the ‘insurgents’ in Iraq. In both situations (for right or wrong) a few determined warriors can tie up a huge occupation force. Once an invading force is sufficiently stretched, they must stop and consolidate, or fail.
You could have done things differently, you didn’t.
In my view you have two choices.
Either, continue to use the world you’ve made and accept what you’ve done (and stop blaming the rules or the elves for what’s happened in your campaign).
Or, reset the game to an earlier point, or find a new world.
If your players aren’t happy with the world you’ve created, I’d recommend the latter. But there are opportunities too.
Moggthegob
First Post
WHat it comes down to is that elf as a race ties to cover way too many bases. As a result we have a nature loving bunch who enjoy unnatural magic. A long-lived race that live in tiny communitied numbering around 200, which to me suggests small families but could suggest a limited number of families( as per PHB fluff) yet they are suceptible to disease. i understand the magic argument but I do not buy it all the way, magic costs money and the typical non-adventurer elf I would assume to have the same income as a commoner which the phb seems to suggest is mere silver pieces per week. So how do they survive- free healing? It is possible it just seems very unlikely to me. It stands to reaso na long-lived race would have disease resistance but they do not--- thats the point all the things they need to function they do not have.
Also with eating- hunting gathering is fine for the summer but what about the wnter months do they store food places like bears and squirrels? I just have a hard time imagining it. So if they do not farm and presumably do not store food places how do they eat in anyway that does not involve large amounts of free spellcasting
They are some what xenophobic in some sources yet they rely on trade. There needs to be either an executive decision on what an elf is instead of trying to streamline a lot of different ideas. A wood elf and a grey elf should look significantly different in terms of what they can do and how they live not very similar with different stats.
Also with eating- hunting gathering is fine for the summer but what about the wnter months do they store food places like bears and squirrels? I just have a hard time imagining it. So if they do not farm and presumably do not store food places how do they eat in anyway that does not involve large amounts of free spellcasting
They are some what xenophobic in some sources yet they rely on trade. There needs to be either an executive decision on what an elf is instead of trying to streamline a lot of different ideas. A wood elf and a grey elf should look significantly different in terms of what they can do and how they live not very similar with different stats.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Finally, Vecna threw the first Legion at Haldendreeva. The first epic challenge was presented to the elves. They smashed the Legions, routed it, sent the remnants fleeing in all directions.
The elves had so overturned reality with stasis clones, clones, simulacrums, contingencies, wishes, extraplanar hideouts, and epic magic, that they no longer existed within a recognizable D&D reality. They no longer existed within any recognizable reality.
They lived, instead, inside a cocoon created by the epic rules and the standard rules maximized. Within this cocoon, their madness grew to epic levels also, and the very name Haldendreeva was synonomous with War.
So when Vecna himself attacked, and leveled Haldendreeva and everything around for miles, and killed many of the elves, it was useless.
The elves just fled to the four corners of the multiverse, resurrected their fellows, and ultimately returned for a second round.
Vecna came with all his legions and wiped Haldendreeva out again, this time pursuing the elves with a vengeance, spreading war throughout many worlds and planes of existence.
Again, the elves dematerialized into the ether, and rematerialized in the Swamp.
Vecna destroyed Haldendreeva again and again. He found it rematerialized like magic, so long as a single elf from this hideous place survived his attack, and some elves always managed to survive.
A vexed Vecna used his most powerful soul killing magic, so that resurrection was not possible. The elves had hid their souls, so that didn't work.
A vexed Vecna used Epic Wishes, but the elves had already used Counter Epic Wishes to prevent them from working.
A vexed Vecna decided to literally blow the Great Grungy Swamp off the face of the planet, and did so. The elves put it back. Then the elves blew Greyhawk off the face of the planet, until Vecna put it back.
Vecna finally opened Gates to Places Unspeakable, and let forth beings that frightened even him. The yeth hounds and minions of Cthulu hunted the elves through space and time ... but it was the elves who won.
Then the Elves of Haldendreeva returned the favor. By now they were hundreds of thousands strong, and all 40th level or higher.
But Vecna was not so easily unseated, and killing Vecna was beyond even the power of the Elves of Haldendreeva.
So the war continued to rage, both sides escalating, artifacts and relics in play, titanic magics and psionics at work, a war throughout the planes, space, and time.
And all of it a meaningless child's game.
For to the elves it was simply ever escalating fun, and to Vecna it was an ever more challenging and interesting puzzle for a jaded old lich.
The war went on for decades. From the point of view of both sides, it went on for centuries.
Then Vecna decided he had better things to do, and simply left Oerth. As simple as that. Recognizing a lost cause, he gave it up and returned to his plan for Sigil elsewhere.
When Vecna left, the war ended.
When the war ended, there was no further purpose in existence, and most of the Elves of Haldendreeva simply faded away.
Those that remained were the weakest of their kind (still quite strong, but not epic) and newest to the madness.
And the madness relaxed. War as the sole purpose to exist ceased to be so.
The surviving elves of Haldendreeva smanaged to reclaim all the Swamp, smash all their neighbors, and establish a great realm, in spite of their greatly lessened power.
Then the madness weakened further. Perhaps the Ritual was fading (although it's prohibitions still stood) in power as the need for it was past. Perhaps the Seldarine were intervening. Perhaps the elves themselves were, no longer beset, reverting to their true selves.
After a few more lesser wars and skirmishes, the elves abandoned further warfare, considering it to be too costly, too painful, and unnecessary, ideas they would never have considered before.
In the subsequent peace, the elven children born were nearly normal elves, albeit with agnakok abilities and a great will to live.
But with that came a great love of all life, something quintessentially elven.
With the children came renewed joy, merriment, and a semi-normal mentality.
The descendants of Haldendreeva all continue to have special abilities, all continue to eat leaves and bugs and sometimes fallen foes, all have an adamant love of life and will to live, and all are willing to be resurrected.
Still rather different as a people, these descendants live in the new Flanaess today, two hundred years after the destruction of old Delrune. Haldendreeva remains as a symbol of what was, what could be again, and the necessity of community, vigilance, and readiness.
Because what happened, will happen again.
The elves had so overturned reality with stasis clones, clones, simulacrums, contingencies, wishes, extraplanar hideouts, and epic magic, that they no longer existed within a recognizable D&D reality. They no longer existed within any recognizable reality.
They lived, instead, inside a cocoon created by the epic rules and the standard rules maximized. Within this cocoon, their madness grew to epic levels also, and the very name Haldendreeva was synonomous with War.
So when Vecna himself attacked, and leveled Haldendreeva and everything around for miles, and killed many of the elves, it was useless.
The elves just fled to the four corners of the multiverse, resurrected their fellows, and ultimately returned for a second round.
Vecna came with all his legions and wiped Haldendreeva out again, this time pursuing the elves with a vengeance, spreading war throughout many worlds and planes of existence.
Again, the elves dematerialized into the ether, and rematerialized in the Swamp.
Vecna destroyed Haldendreeva again and again. He found it rematerialized like magic, so long as a single elf from this hideous place survived his attack, and some elves always managed to survive.
A vexed Vecna used his most powerful soul killing magic, so that resurrection was not possible. The elves had hid their souls, so that didn't work.
A vexed Vecna used Epic Wishes, but the elves had already used Counter Epic Wishes to prevent them from working.
A vexed Vecna decided to literally blow the Great Grungy Swamp off the face of the planet, and did so. The elves put it back. Then the elves blew Greyhawk off the face of the planet, until Vecna put it back.
Vecna finally opened Gates to Places Unspeakable, and let forth beings that frightened even him. The yeth hounds and minions of Cthulu hunted the elves through space and time ... but it was the elves who won.
Then the Elves of Haldendreeva returned the favor. By now they were hundreds of thousands strong, and all 40th level or higher.
But Vecna was not so easily unseated, and killing Vecna was beyond even the power of the Elves of Haldendreeva.
So the war continued to rage, both sides escalating, artifacts and relics in play, titanic magics and psionics at work, a war throughout the planes, space, and time.
And all of it a meaningless child's game.
For to the elves it was simply ever escalating fun, and to Vecna it was an ever more challenging and interesting puzzle for a jaded old lich.
The war went on for decades. From the point of view of both sides, it went on for centuries.
Then Vecna decided he had better things to do, and simply left Oerth. As simple as that. Recognizing a lost cause, he gave it up and returned to his plan for Sigil elsewhere.
When Vecna left, the war ended.
When the war ended, there was no further purpose in existence, and most of the Elves of Haldendreeva simply faded away.
Those that remained were the weakest of their kind (still quite strong, but not epic) and newest to the madness.
And the madness relaxed. War as the sole purpose to exist ceased to be so.
The surviving elves of Haldendreeva smanaged to reclaim all the Swamp, smash all their neighbors, and establish a great realm, in spite of their greatly lessened power.
Then the madness weakened further. Perhaps the Ritual was fading (although it's prohibitions still stood) in power as the need for it was past. Perhaps the Seldarine were intervening. Perhaps the elves themselves were, no longer beset, reverting to their true selves.
After a few more lesser wars and skirmishes, the elves abandoned further warfare, considering it to be too costly, too painful, and unnecessary, ideas they would never have considered before.
In the subsequent peace, the elven children born were nearly normal elves, albeit with agnakok abilities and a great will to live.
But with that came a great love of all life, something quintessentially elven.
With the children came renewed joy, merriment, and a semi-normal mentality.
The descendants of Haldendreeva all continue to have special abilities, all continue to eat leaves and bugs and sometimes fallen foes, all have an adamant love of life and will to live, and all are willing to be resurrected.
Still rather different as a people, these descendants live in the new Flanaess today, two hundred years after the destruction of old Delrune. Haldendreeva remains as a symbol of what was, what could be again, and the necessity of community, vigilance, and readiness.
Because what happened, will happen again.
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(amused look)
Something similar to the above story happened in the main settings. The difference was the ending.
The Suloise and Baklunish obliterated each other. Their descendants continue this work.
The Elves of Ansalon have been devastated, their homelands wiped out.
The World of Athas is devastated and most of it's races are exterminated.
Evil reigns unchecked and grows out of control in Ravenloft.
The Forgotten Realms are in ruins from past magics. Only a learned few dedicated to peace keep the remnant of the world from obliterating itself.
The standard ending has the elves of Haldendrea simply dying out. They chose an alternate way, and the ending was different.
Was it madness, as I keep saying it was, or was it a strange kind of sanity?
If the elves of Delrune and elsewhere in the Flanaess could have altered what happened, how could they have done so?
What was needed? What mindset was required? What actions were necessary?
And no, a setting need not be engulfed in war, much less ultimate war.
It just happens that this particular setting was engulfed in war, then ultimate war, and now it is at peace ... but the present day races reflect the past events of the setting.
Something similar to the above story happened in the main settings. The difference was the ending.
The Suloise and Baklunish obliterated each other. Their descendants continue this work.
The Elves of Ansalon have been devastated, their homelands wiped out.
The World of Athas is devastated and most of it's races are exterminated.
Evil reigns unchecked and grows out of control in Ravenloft.
The Forgotten Realms are in ruins from past magics. Only a learned few dedicated to peace keep the remnant of the world from obliterating itself.
The standard ending has the elves of Haldendrea simply dying out. They chose an alternate way, and the ending was different.
Was it madness, as I keep saying it was, or was it a strange kind of sanity?
If the elves of Delrune and elsewhere in the Flanaess could have altered what happened, how could they have done so?
What was needed? What mindset was required? What actions were necessary?
And no, a setting need not be engulfed in war, much less ultimate war.
It just happens that this particular setting was engulfed in war, then ultimate war, and now it is at peace ... but the present day races reflect the past events of the setting.
Wow! That's some lovingly-created setting history you have come up with. I can see your reluctance to abandon it; it's dramatic and detailed. It sounds like there are some things you could stand to change in it if you want to elves to do better; but it's certainly a fun narrative as it stands.
It also makes sense of your concerns about birth rates and how elves could recover from a demographic disaster. Obviously, this is a big issue in your campaign world and the number one question that is facing your elves.
Just remember: even societies with traditionally low or declining birth rates sometimes have lots of kids in the aftermath of demographic disasters like the one in your campaign world. Elves, like European and American humans in our world might be very long-lived and slow to reproduce but, after a war, change their short-term reproductive behaviour to produce some sort of baby boom.
It also makes sense of your concerns about birth rates and how elves could recover from a demographic disaster. Obviously, this is a big issue in your campaign world and the number one question that is facing your elves.
Just remember: even societies with traditionally low or declining birth rates sometimes have lots of kids in the aftermath of demographic disasters like the one in your campaign world. Elves, like European and American humans in our world might be very long-lived and slow to reproduce but, after a war, change their short-term reproductive behaviour to produce some sort of baby boom.
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